RE: constitution idol (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid



Message


Owner59 -> RE: constitution idol (10/14/2007 12:51:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

The oldest and longest form of government in the world ,is the US government and it`s Constitution.
On what planet??? The British system has been around far longer, as has the Scandinavian countries, and let's not forget Iceland, or Thailand


I don`t know.My recolection was that when the US started out,the British(or as bush calls them,the Great British)were ruled by a king.King George,I think.The king doesn`t rule the England,(in real life,anyway) any more.

As for the rest,yadda yadda.




Real0ne -> RE: constitution idol (10/14/2007 9:35:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

........why is the US constitution such an important thing for US people? Why are the framers held in such high regard?
Isn't it posible that the world they were writing about has ceased to exist and that, perhaps, each generation must fundamentally rewrite such a thing as a constitution in order to meet the unique challenges that they face?





How would one re-write something that is already boiled down to the lowest common denominator?  Civil law, case law often is the living part of our government but the constitution is called the supreme law because it enumerates inalienable rights and the extent in which we authorize the governemnt to control our environment.

Every word has a specific meaning in law that is why we hang on every word.

The goal imo was to groom a nation of highly educated sovereigns. (hence full property ownership).

Who does a king pay property tax too?










Real0ne -> RE: constitution idol (10/14/2007 9:41:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...seems to me that when i see people here discuss constitutional issues the arguments tend to hinge on the precise wording of the constitution. Now i have no desire to disparage the constitution as an achievement utterly appropriate in its time, but things change faster than written words do, especially when those words have the force of law. What possible system can be devised that is as fast on its feet as events?


What event can happen so fast that we cannot respond to it?  The only event that was supposed to come under that catagory was an attack directly within our national boundaries.  Of course missiles being launched would need special consideration but there is little or nothing that we do not have advanced warning abnout.






Real0ne -> RE: constitution idol (10/14/2007 9:52:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Great question,Philosophy


I believe the constitution "is" our country.

Every country has people,places and things, in it.Some are more blessed than others.

But what makes us different and better,and sets us apart,is the US Constitution,IMO.

The framers made what`s sometimes called ,"a living document".Meaning that it was made to change and adjust,as needed through time.That`s why there are mechanisms to amend it,so it doesn`t become stagnant or out dated.

I beleive that`s why it, and the US has lasted over 200 years.
The oldest and longest form of government in the world ,is the US government and it`s Constitution.



Oh come on man!

Get the bugles bang the drums and wave those flags aye?

The only thing bush said that was true in 8 years was that it was nothing but a piece of paper and he has lots of money and clout so he shoud know aye?

There have been many other governments that lasted longer than 200 years, try cracking a history book sometime. LOL

No you are dead wrong if you think the constitution is a living document.  If you want a living document go a monarchy or "democracy".  They have living documents.

The constitution is a no pork contract with the government which enumerates our most "fundamental" rights.  Not a living document that can be changed because we had a few beers and want to walk the streets drunk.

The framers even admonished us to insure we look at its intent before changing it.   It was never inteded to be a living document which is not the same as having the ability to amend it.









philosophy -> RE: constitution idol (10/15/2007 8:32:44 AM)

.....thanks for the interesting answers.....

just to clarify a point made by a couple of people, when i wrote of 'things changing so fast' that written laws can't change fast enough, i was refering to things such as information technology and civil rights. The sort of thing that changes a society faster than the written laws that govern it.......




Alumbrado -> RE: constitution idol (10/15/2007 8:51:47 AM)

The Constitution wasn't written relevant to specifics so much as it was written to provide a flexible set of principles and safeguards against universal human traits.
That is why  the parts like 10th amendment were sufficient to deal with unforseen developments, like automobiles, or the development of policing.

Now if a truly unique breakthrough were made, say something out of science fiction, like a mind control device, the document would probably be insufficient to cope.

As it turned out, given the span of time and the real world advances involved, it seems to have held up pretty well. Each generation has been remarkably like the last on the level of governance.




philosophy -> RE: constitution idol (10/15/2007 10:12:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Now if a truly unique breakthrough were made, say something out of science fiction, like a mind control device, the document would probably be insufficient to cope.



...you wouldn't class the recent stuff in genetics as this sort of breakthrough?




Alumbrado -> RE: constitution idol (10/15/2007 10:15:28 AM)

I suspect that future issues such as what rights a clone could have and such, could still be handled though the existing system (not to everyone's satisfaction of course). 

What did you have in mind?




philosophy -> RE: constitution idol (10/15/2007 10:23:52 AM)

....i suppose what i was getting at was a basket of things that genetic advances hint at: the potential ability to hint at future propensity to diseases maybe and who ought to have acess to such information.......stem call possibilities and where to harvest them.......cloning, as you've pointed out........

....essentially, genetics are a swiss army knife of possible scientific advancements that could singly or together change the way we live our lives. Those changes may be essentially cosmetic, to be sure, but they may also be radical.

As i've said before i'm not knocking the US constitution as a historical achievement, but i am not so convinced that a written code of any type is flexible enough to cope with changing times or perceptions.





farglebargle -> RE: constitution idol (10/15/2007 10:24:29 AM)

Vernor Vinge's Rainbow's End goes into what these disruptive technologies might be, specifically the YGBM technology.





Termyn8or -> RE: constitution idol (10/15/2007 1:15:19 PM)

I have to take back the "Smarter than a fifth grader" remark. When I was in the fifth grade I had already stopped reciting the pledge of allegiance. Dummy me. It is just words, pledges, promises and oaths mean nothing at all.

In a way the Constitution is a treaty between the People and the government. Look at how they have treated treaties in the past. It should be no surprise to find those shit stains on the Constitution as well.

Some of it was coming anyway, you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, why ? Because people are stupider than cattle and will kill each other to save themselves. Literally trample one another to death. So now we have six channel Dolby surround in the theaters that can make it seem that someone actually did yell "fire". Now we would sue the movie producer for those horrendous deaths. This because we teach children to be selfish, and they grow up to be selfish adults.

The second amendment had to go. Every day there would be a shooting over a parking spot. In this day and age it could happen at a gym where the person is going to get on a treadmill, but doesn't want to walk an extra few feet from the car.

My idea for gun control is sufficient, and it has not to do with the kind of gun you can HAVE, only the kind of gun yous can SHOOT, even in self defense. Within city limits, or in apartment buildings etc., hollow points must be used. Anyone who knows anything about guns knows why.

It just goes to show you, when you run away from a problem it will follow you. The oppression immigrants experienced in their native countries has come here. People from Russia who came here ask me "Where is the freedom ?". How am I to reply ? This guy couldn't believe that the metroparks closed at 11 PM. I didn't have the heart to tell him that he needs a license to fish, but I did it anyway. In Russia you don't need a fishing license. Also there when you get a hunting license it is good for life. One wonder how any Russian citizen can hunt, surely they are not allowed to have guns right ? Wrong !

There are very few people who can do my job in this country, and I suppose that is why I have met so many technically skilled immigrants. Most of them also have values that I consider desirable. Each and every one of them has considered going back. All of them tell a similar story, that what they were told about this country was false.

Now, they don't have to worry about too many educated Europeans emmigrating to the US, with email and international long distance the word is getting out. Most of the good people will be choosing alternate new homelands. Many of them do not want to go to England either, in fact there are many people contemplating leaving England as well. After all when you need a license for a TV set, it is just plain wrong. And we are heading there.

If you own a microwave oven you have probably violated federal "law". Micerowave ovens are required to be registered with the federal government. Did you do that ? Hell no, you paid the money, sat the thing on the fridge or some stand or shelf and plugged it in didn't you ? Criminal. The fine is ten grand. Pay up. They need your money to burn Women, children, houses.

At this juncture in history there is no hope, but there also is no fate. Hope cannot coexist with fate, and I for one do not fool myself. I will not have a happy retirement, I will not like the way things are unless there is a whole lot of blood shed. This because the assholes who fucked this country up are not stepping down voluntarily.

Actually what happened here is they lie. They lie so much we are used to it. And now, ironically, when they say the Constitution is a living document, they are merely re-reporting it's death.

Even in the fifties there was a state or two in which you did not even need a driver's license. Does this mean if you got drunk and hit somebody you would not be put in jail for it ? hell no. They used to put people in jail for hitting someone if they operated a horse and buggy carelessly and caused injury or damage.

Different times had different people. I mean the attitude. I'll pose a hypothetical question here, perhaps it can be answered but I am not really looking for an answer in the factual, historical sense. But feel free, it's just that I am more looking for comments.

After Lincoln was assassinated, did they start frisking people on the way into theaters for guns ? As a sub-question, should they have ?

Your answer to the sub-question will be quite telling of your personal views pertaining to personal freedom in this country. Some might not want to answer. If you believe that it is a good thing to give up your Rights for safety, it shows. But as a great statesman said a long time ago, it simply doesn't work.

Remember we are talking back then. This is my night out, I go to the theater, I have near four dollars in my pocket and the sherriff is on the other side of town. I have to protect myself. Of course I would think that the sherriff would be very closeby if the President of the whole dern US of A was at the town theater, but he wouldn't be worried about me. Of course he wouldn't want to have any crimes commited in the presence of the fine gentleman, but then, just like now they cannot be everwhere.

This is the crux of the matter. The Constitution of this country was specifically designed to keep the People able and willing to defend themselves. The freedom of assembly is specifically desinged to enable the People to get together and get a plan to coerce the government to bend to the will of the People. Gun rights secure the threat. All the stuff in there having to do with what they can and can't do when they take your property and put you in jail was designed so that they could not engineer society by selectively enforcing the "law". 

That is the spirit of the Constitution and I assure you it is dead. It is not only dead in the halls of government, it is dead in the hearts and minds of the people. The first person who said "There should be a law" should've been summarily shot. You SHOULD be able to yell "fire" in a crowded theater, people should not react like cattle. They should respond like humans. But they don't.

It is not surprising that many people abandon the tenets of the Founding Fathers. Look around them.

"LOOK AROUND THEM"

That is one for the books. That means to step outside of your box and examine what another has percieved in life. You will never know it all, but to try to understand, to understand why they think like they do, that is an asset. To try to get just a little insight into their life experience, that which shaped their present opinions and thoughts.

This is sad. It is also sad that people in general would, if you were to yell "fire" in a theater, instead of looking around to see where the fire is, they would bolt like cattle, trampling their loved ones, friends and neighbors.

It is sad that there are people who are so wrapped up in their own lives and devoid of any humanity that they would consider shooting someone for a parking spot.

Perhaps we do not deserve the rights that were given us. Perhaps we deserve to have lost all the rights they have taken away. Perhaps we simply aren't advanced enough as a race, to handle these rights responsibly. Don't even get into the Protocols, these are MY words. I see it every day. The historical perspect supports this, but real life establishes it as near fact.

There are only two ways out, shoot your way out or teach your way out. If everyone is taught to think and act responsibly, we can have our rights back. We can organize and present our redress. We can then go to the next stage if necessary. As I said before, McVeigh was an asshole. That was no way to get things done. As intelligent as I may be, one Man is not enough, and I don't even mean the grunt work. I mean the thinking and planning. If anything ever happens, we must not alienate the masses. We must curry their favor and get them on our side. And we need to teach them what it is supposed to be like here, who fucked it up and above all else, SELF CONTROL.

And that means more than most think. That means on 9/11/01 you watch the WTC collapse and feel nothing. You didn't feel good but you just reserved your emotions for a time so you could think. You specifically did not listen to Bush, even though you heard his words. You specifically decided to think this out on your own. You did not scream for retribution in the first millesecond. Know what I mean ?

We have all been lied to all our lives, and that has shaped our opinions and attitudes. Sifting through the lies to get the truth is quite important if we are ever to evolve.

Enough. Be well. Consider my words. Your life is happening right now. Live it. It is either live it or lose it, or live it and lose it. Your choice.

T




Real0ne -> RE: constitution idol (10/15/2007 4:29:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

.....thanks for the interesting answers.....

just to clarify a point made by a couple of people, when i wrote of 'things changing so fast' that written laws can't change fast enough, i was refering to things such as information technology and civil rights. The sort of thing that changes a society faster than the written laws that govern it.......


I am not sure that i understand where you are trying to get with your question.

The constitution gives us latitude to do literally anything we want with genetics.

Genetics is more of a moral issue much along the same lines as abortion. The biggest problem of course is that should a thing become a sentient being and the being is of human origin then under the constitution it has the inalienable right to sovereignity hence ownership of its own body.

The reason most peole are unaware of that rvw went through is that under the constitution which is based on sovereign ownership a dependant fetus cannot be classifed as a sovereign, with self determination, hence abortions are legal.

I think that clones etc would be handled similarly.  ie: if you could somehow create a clone that had no brain but functioned asspare parts i could see that flying on a constitutional scale.

Most of this stuff is ruled on in the lower courts and in time make it to the sc but I do not envision a situation where it would wind up in the constitution.




Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.0625