Outcasts of Society

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MadRabbit -> Outcasts of Society (10/11/2007 1:53:07 PM)
Do you think that in this day in age there is a real and quantifiable fear of persecution and condemnation of BDSM and its aberrant sexual practices and relationships by American society as a whole? If not society as a whole, do you think there is a "real" threat from certain "groups" or "sects" of people who have agendas in opposition to some of the values presented in BDSM, such as feminists and religious organizations? Do you think someone can be open, honest, and non secretive regarding their own relationships and sexual practices without experiencing any form of consequence or retribution? Have you personally had any experiences or incidents where consequences that affected your life from having your own personal lifestyle "exposed"? Do you think the barriers people construct between "BDSM" and "the Vanilla World" are done out of necessity and need for preservation of a successful life or are done more out of a way of coping with personal fear, insecurity, and uncomfortably with their own sexuality and relationships? Edited To Add One More Question : Have your experiences with mentioning your unusual sexual and relationship tastes to people who have not labeled themselves as "kinky" been ones of fear, repulsion and aversion or curiousity and tolerance?

DarkDaddyZ -> RE: Outcasts of Society (10/11/2007 2:02:04 PM)
Absolutely! Especially in (conservative, actually MOST) religious sets. I do not think the Church Of Latter Day Saints, The Catholics, and most other religions would even allow you to take "communion (or similar 'rituals") if they knew you were active with BDSM. While it's been over 10 years, I have seen some people that were friends and play partners who weren't using the best judgement have family protection services called, been investigated etc based on their lifestyle. 8 out of 10 were cleared. I've seen it brought in messy divorces and so on. Has the BDSM lifestyle been accepted more than in the past? I believe it depends on where you live. Will it ever be totally accepted, in my opinion, no. Do I WANT it to be accepted? Personally part of my kink of BDSM is the taboo of it. I get off on that aspect and the sort of secret society element of it. I bitch about it at times because it's lost a lot of that because of the internet. It's something I love and loathe at the same time. Great topic Mad Rabbit!

toservez -> RE: Outcasts of Society (10/11/2007 2:09:20 PM)
Most obsessed with secrecy is either out of fear of public opinion and not totally accepting of their own nature. Also many might have jobs that could be in danger if exposed or at the least think their jobs would be in danger. Outside of paying our bills I do not think at this time there is legitimate fear of real persecution. I am not saying if religious extremism, and I am talking about in America, continues that down the road it cannot happen, but the people who truly would like to persecute and the people who just do not like or would not care if it did happen are two very different populations. The zealots are still a small minority. Personally I work in an ER and have several times exposed myself to come to the defense of people who have been brought in with questionable injuries. I am lucky that in my field no jobs worries and just ignore gossip and take some good natured teasing and it always blows over.

ShiftedJewel -> RE: Outcasts of Society (10/11/2007 2:49:47 PM)
quote: Do you think that in this day in age there is a real and quantifiable fear of persecution and condemnation of BDSM and its aberrant sexual practices and relationships by American society as a whole? If not society as a whole, do you think there is a "real" threat from certain "groups" or "sects" of people who have agendas in opposition to some of the values presented in BDSM, such as feminists and religious organizations? Society as a whole... I don't think so, I honestly believe that in todays world people are less likely to be as shocked as some would believe them to be. But certain groups, like the moral majority... I'm pretty sure they would loose their minds and throw all kinds of a fit over it. quote: Do you think someone can be open, honest, and non secretive regarding their own relationships and sexual practices without experiencing any form of consequence or retribution? Have you personally had any experiences or incidents where consequences that affected your life from having your own personal lifestyle "exposed"? *I think some people can, we are and we've never had anything negative happen because of it.* quote: Do you think the barriers people construct between "BDSM" and "the Vanilla World" are done out of necessity and need for preservation of a successful life or are done more out of a way of coping with personal fear, insecurity, and uncomfortably with their own sexuality and relationships? That's a really big question. I think for some it is done out of necessity, job security and things like that. For others, I honestly believe it's done out of fear, (real or imagined) whether that fear stems from whether or not family and/or friends will accept them and their choices, insecurity in what they have chosen, or discomfort in their chosen relationship is anyones guess. quote: Have your experiences with mentioning your unusual sexual and relationship tastes to people who have not labeled themselves as "kinky" been ones of fear, repulsion and aversion or curiousity and tolerance? *Actually, it was more then curiousity and tolerance.. one person commented that we live the life she wishes she had the guts to live.* *Jewel*

Tigrita -> RE: Outcasts of Society (10/11/2007 2:53:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit Do you think that in this day in age there is a real and quantifiable fear of persecution and condemnation of BDSM and its aberrant sexual practices and relationships by American society as a whole? I don't really personally feel that directly, but still I think it is safe to assume that there is overall. I don't really have any evidence either way except that my peers seem pretty openminded as I don't really hide my highly sexual personality around them (though I also don't go into specific details). Many know I'm in an open relationship (though I don't advertise that it is actually poly), have bi-tendencies (though I admit it usually comes off jokingly but I'm sure after a couple times they pick up the thread of reality), and kinky (cocktail conversation, ya know how it goes after a few drinks). I'm a bit of an exhibitionist, so I'm pretty open about stuff, I like raising eyebrows. If not society as a whole, do you think there is a "real" threat from certain "groups" or "sects" of people who have agendas in opposition to some of the values presented in BDSM, such as feminists and religious organizations? I don't have any experience with this. I would assume the religious right would be quite opposed, even though a lot of D/s values reflect traditional home-maker dynamics (asside from the kink). Well, on the other side of the coin I do have very 'empowered woman' type friends who frown on any woman being subservient to a man. I admit, I used to be one of them. It wasn't until I came here and learned more about what drives different people in D/s that I came to appreciate that it can be an expression of positive, empowering things and be very fulfilling. Do you think someone can be open, honest, and non secretive regarding their own relationships and sexual practices without experiencing any form of consequence or retribution? I refuse to outright lie to hide anything. I am fairly open with a lot of people, and entirely open with close friends. I don't fear retribution because people who have power over my life don't know any details of my personal life, BDSM or vanilla. I suppose if by chance something came out I would be a bit anxious, but I honestly don't think it would detrimentally impact my life, just raise some eyebrows. Okay, I would not want my family to know. They are religious conservatives, and stopped speaking to my college boyfriend who had been like a son to them when they found out he took me away for a romantic weekend. Talk about delusional, I'd been with him for almost 4 years and was 22. They'd probably either disown me or try to have me committed. Have you personally had any experiences or incidents where consequences that affected your life from having your own personal lifestyle "exposed"? No Do you think the barriers people construct between "BDSM" and "the Vanilla World" are done out of necessity and need for preservation of a successful life or are done more out of a way of coping with personal fear, insecurity, and uncomfortably with their own sexuality and relationships? I think it is more a barrier between personal sex life and those who I have no reason to share that with (for me at least). It has nothing to do with D/s vs. vanilla. Edited To Add One More Question : Have your experiences with mentioning your unusual sexual and relationship tastes to people who have not labeled themselves as "kinky" been ones of fear, repulsion and aversion or curiousity and tolerance? My peers have as far as I can tell have been mostly tolerant and curious. Edited for typos

Celeste43 -> RE: Outcasts of Society (10/11/2007 3:03:12 PM)
It depends. Rural Iowa is a lot different than L.A. or NYC. But an advertising exec isn't likely to suffer much fallout unless their biggest client is a religious group. A preschool teacher has more to worry about.

toservez -> RE: Outcasts of Society (10/11/2007 3:06:04 PM)
quote: Have your experiences with mentioning your unusual sexual and relationship tastes to people who have not labeled themselves as "kinky" been ones of fear, repulsion and aversion or curiousity and tolerance? To be honest I am open about being bisexual and that has had far more of a pain in terms of people being curious, wanting titillation or wanting to talk to me because of their repressed feelings and desires then my M/s and BDSM. Most BDSM reactions have to do with human curiosity then anything about repulsion, fear, tolerance or outward judgment.

laurell3 -> RE: Outcasts of Society (10/11/2007 3:12:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Celeste43 It depends. Rural Iowa is a lot different than L.A. or NYC. But an advertising exec isn't likely to suffer much fallout unless their biggest client is a religious group. A preschool teacher has more to worry about. That's somewhat of an understatement. I live in Omaha, Nebraska, while it's small by big city standards, it's fairly large by midwest standards. Being outted would end my career and the ramifications of people knowing would be rather widespread in the community. I've seen it happen, even to males. We don't have alot to do here I guess, gossip is horrible, think of it like living in a very large, very conservative high school. I am fine with my kink and "totally accept my nature." To assume otherwise is somewhat ignorant. Airing my sexual activities to others isn't at all necessary for me to have worthwhile, meaningful d/s relationships. l

prsissy -> RE: Outcasts of Society (10/11/2007 3:13:30 PM)
So long as the religious right has a stranglehold on this nation, persecution and alienation are common practices. People fear what's different, they choose to either not understand the other's person's preference or ridicule him or her for choosing such a preference. I also believe many people are afraid of their sexuality, how they feel. They repress all this anger inside and the only way to express themselves is to direct that anger towards those who are comfortable expressing their sexuality. The mainstream media views the BDSM community in such a negative light, it's almost impossible to defend oneself and not be labeled a "deviant" or "sick individual". As for personal experiences, I have been lucky in a sense to have not been "outed" as a participant in the BDSM community. My preferences are many, including cross dressing. If close friends, family or co-workers were to know of my many interests or activities, I would probably be disowned, ridiculed and deemed an outcast in my community. I'm sure many on this board either guard their secret close or are comfortable in disclosing who they are. Depends on the person's situation.

DarkDaddyZ -> RE: Outcasts of Society (10/11/2007 3:23:55 PM)
One thing I'd like to add: There are different variations on alternative communities from swingers, to gay, to kinky, BDSM to all of the above. We all have opinions on that and some of us are more open than others. Gay men into BDSM went through a lot of their acceptance in the 70s and 80s, sadly when AIDS blew up in the early 80s, the gay (male) community became more open to gay men into the S&M lifestyle and that could be because penetration (sex) is much more acceptable within the gay male (as well as gay female) community than it is in the het community (based on MY experience). Leatherdykes, or gay women into BDSM had a hard time being accepted in the women's community (they had their own self described "sex wars" in the late 80s up to the early 90s). Some lesbians still don't accept gay women into BDSM. "On Our Backs" (the women's magazine) was created for women like that and was very controversial. Still is to some (even though I believe they recently stopped printing, though I am not 100 percent sure). I've found in smaller cities like Dayton, Ohio and Lincoln, Nebraska, BDSM is much more accepted within the gay community because it's inclusive. I find the smaller cities that have gay communities seem more accepting of all even hets into BDSM. Z-

gypsygrl -> RE: Outcasts of Society (10/11/2007 3:49:03 PM)
For the most part, I've never felt any negative reaction except from a few academic feminists jumping to all sorts of knee jerk conclusions left over from the 1980's sex wars mentioned in a previous post. Curiosity and tolerance have been much more common. I think people are a lot more accepting of diversity than we perverts give them credit for.

amayos -> RE: Outcasts of Society (10/11/2007 4:26:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit Do you think that in this day in age there is a real and quantifiable fear of persecution and condemnation of BDSM and its aberrant sexual practices and relationships by American society as a whole? The social consequences and retributions for the so-called "lifestyle" come mostly from within its very own walls. In this day and age, it is not so much persecution or condemnation I grow weary of. It is rather the persistence of a growing assumption about who I am, in light of how trendy "alternative lifestyles" have become. There is a tremendous amount of slobbery and blobbery in the "BDSM community" that I find increasingly distasteful; many of its abused and watered down terms have joined the bland parlance of the pervy underground singles circus. Lest I be guilty by association in the eyes of popular ignorance, I tend to keep tight-lipped about who and what I am. When I am in the company of the scholared few, I will speak candidly of it with little worry.

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Outcasts of Society (10/11/2007 4:35:33 PM)
I have personal experience with this. Back in 1998 , I was one of 3 founding members of a BDSM club. During that time we were evicted from the facilities we rented, when the buildings owner found out what we were doing - despite having made it clear with the realtor/manager. Our organization was properly organized, had non-profit status, insurance with Loyd's of London and the fascilities were very private. The landlord was extremely offended by what he perceived we were doing and wanted us OUT. Anyway, we tried to fight the eviction and lost in court. I can honestly say that providing testimony about our BDSM organization amidst horrified stares, gaping mouths and snickering audiences, was not one of my fonder moments. One of the members found a BDSM friendly landlord and rented an industrial space over a flea market of sorts, and as far as I know they are still there and thriving. I'm very proud, despite the initial problems we faced, to know I had a hand in that organizations foundation. The second opportunity I had for dealing with prejudices against BDSM practices was around 2003 (give or take a year). I lived in a home that had an annual event called Whipstock. The event had taken place 4 years prior but the township found out about the event and not only attempted to stop the event from taking place that year but prior to that had re-written their zoning laws and tried to cite the owners of the property (who hosted the event - which was a fundraising event for a non-profit group who helped BDSM members in crisis) with two tickets. One of the zoning citations was for a law that had been re-written and wasn't even in effect. Basically they tried to cite them for breaking the law with the previous years event, even though the law wasn't yet on the books at the time. Needless to say, I once again found myself in court. This time, someone called the media and our home and our livestyles were placed under public scrutiny. The original broadcast was NOT favorable in the least. The worst possible slant was placed on it. Children who lived in our home had to attend schools where everyone in the township knew what had happened. Not a pleasant time at all. However, the couple went on interviews, explaining what the events REALLY were, and the people they helped through their fund raisings and the media frenzy shifted to a much less judgemental tone and it ended positively. The court ended neutrally for all parties. The unjust citation was thrown out, and the event had to be held elsewhere, but aside from the nuisance of moving an event set up for 200 people was not the end of the world. Despite my unpleasant experiences, I still do not believe in being an advocate of fear. I do, however, believe in the CYA (cover your ass - no pun intended) of BDSM etiquette. Over the years, I've seen the fear of exposure and paranoia amidst those who participate in BDSM flair up with little provocation and send members scurrying underground as if what we do is shameful. I do not personally participate in things that I find shameful, though I know that there are those who will never see it as anything but disgusting. Unfortunately, when the very people participating in BDSM activities carry their own stigma of shame like a scarlet letter, it is not hard to understand why those who do not understand the lifestyle see it as a shameful act. So to answer the OP, yes. I know there are those 'out there' who can and will cause problems for people who participate in BDSM activities. I have not even recounted experiences I now of from people who have been in crisis - but because of their former relationships received little help from law enforcement (not that I blame law enforcement at all!) - nor the families who have been scrutinized under a microscope by Child Protection Agencies. Again, I am not opposed to that organization. I believe that our children deserve to be protected from harm. In this case, a disgruntled party goer who behaved badly at an event, and was removed from the event, reported one couples (who had children) BDSM activities and the CPA came out and investigated the family. The allegations were unfounded, nothing happened but still. It was a frightening time for the couple. I'm not as zealous, as I was 10 years ago, regarding civil liberties. I no longer march in parades, protesting what I perceive to be injustices. I leave those things for the younger crowd. But, I've had my share of experiences with BDSM persecution, unfortunately. Still, I wouldn't change things. I've had the priviledge of meeting Dossie Easton, Janet Hardy as well as many active protestors in the Gay Rights movement, attending as an invited guest, the Lords of Leather Mardi Gras Ball and private parties held afterwards in a world I'd never have had opportunity to witness otherwise. Its been a great and wonderful ride. I say this, not to brag on my experiences (not that I'm above or beneath doing so) but to say that sometimes, you have to step outside your comfort zone and risk a few things to experience the best of what is out there.

ExSteelAgain -> RE: Outcasts of Society (10/11/2007 4:48:22 PM)
Nationally syndicated radio show personality, Michael Savage, is making a direct attack these days on BDSM. He is based in San Francisco and posts pictures of BDSM events going on in town in a negative light. Here is his website with the pics. http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/

DarkDaddyZ -> RE: Outcasts of Society (10/11/2007 5:04:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain Nationally syndicated radio show personality, Michael Savage, is making a direct attack these days on BDSM. He is based in San Francisco and posts pictures of BDSM events going on in town in a negative light. Here is his website with the pics. http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/ Yeah, San Francisco is the most liberal city in America besides Portland, OR and possible, Seattle, Washington. But even WE have our thorns OUTSIDE the dungeon. Michael Savage is one of them......sigh.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Outcasts of Society (10/11/2007 5:11:47 PM)
yes. speaking for the American society that this slave has witnessed. as long as hate groups such as these: http://americansfortruth.com/ http://www.catholicleague.org/ represent a political "majority" and regulates the way society is allowed to accept alternative relationships and BDSM... and as long as we have laws that do not allow for adults to consent to what is considered by that society as "battery" or "abuse" and "next of kin" means a blood relative or marriage partner of the opposite sex... than anyone who participates in BDSM with anyone else is in danger of being prosecuted/witchhunted by their local law enforcement, Mental Health Comrades and/or their local vanilla social scene...not to mention family members and best-of-friends. just look at the intolerance that can be readily found HERE, on a BDSM message board, with regards to BDSM and alternative relationships in just about any thread you'd care to peruse.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Outcasts of Society (10/11/2007 5:34:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit Do you think that in this day in age there is a real and quantifiable fear of persecution and condemnation of BDSM and its aberrant sexual practices and relationships by American society as a whole? From society as a whole? Persecution not as much, condemnation- yeah it's still there. And kinky people often have the same issues with "aberrant sex" as vanillas do, they are just ok with kinky activities. quote: If not society as a whole, do you think there is a "real" threat from certain "groups" or "sects" of people who have agendas in opposition to some of the values presented in BDSM, such as feminists and religious organizations? I don't think it will get to that point in the present or forseeable future- but only because there's bigger fish to fry and no easy target. quote: Do you think someone can be open, honest, and non secretive regarding their own relationships and sexual practices without experiencing any form of consequence or retribution? Everything has a consequence, do you mean NEGATIVE? I do, so obviously someone can. But most cannot- even now I hear people who have been in the scene for decades lie to their vanilla friends, people they CHOOSE to be in their lives. I feel so sad for them. quote: Have you personally had any experiences or incidents where consequences that affected your life from having your own personal lifestyle "exposed"? Uhhh only when I chose to expose them. quote: Do you think the barriers people construct between "BDSM" and "the Vanilla World" are done out of necessity and need for preservation of a successful life or are done more out of a way of coping with personal fear, insecurity, and uncomfortably with their own sexuality and relationships? I think it's more that they don't know how to integrate things, that they create a false barrier, and as a way to feel cooler than others. quote: Have your experiences with mentioning your unusual sexual and relationship tastes to people who have not labeled themselves as "kinky" been ones of fear, repulsion and aversion or curiousity and tolerance? Almost always curiousity.

MadRabbit -> RE: Outcasts of Society (10/11/2007 5:36:28 PM)
I would like to thank everone contributing to this discussion. The variety of opinions and experiences has been nothing short of informative.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Outcasts of Society (10/11/2007 5:48:32 PM)
I know people who have lost children, visitation rights and jobs because of the lifestyle. One of the things that bothers me about the 'BDSM/vanilla barrier' is that we ourselves keep advertizing what we do as being 'dark' and 'taboo' and such. We're making ourselves different in a negative way when we do this. The gay and lesbian communities made leaps and bounds by showing that they are normal, well adjusted human beings. We won't be accepted until we do the same. Even so, I usually don't offer information to people about the kind of relationships I have. If I say something that makes them curious or if they ask a question where the only honest answer is the frank truth, then I'll talk...and I usually let them know that they can ask whatever questions they want. Some do, some don't. Master Fire

TNstepsout -> RE: Outcasts of Society (10/11/2007 6:09:43 PM)
Here in the Bible Belt, yes it can be a big problem. It's not at all uncommon to run into people who won't let their children celebrate Halloween or read Harry Potter. If they see evil in such innocent things what do you think they would do if they knew their Pediatrician, child's Teacher, Coach, neighbor etc... was engaged in BDSM activities? You can't argue with this sort of thinking and you can't explain that it's all in good fun.

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