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neo-con`s phony war on terror,is making things worse - 10/8/2007 9:10:22 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		If we asked them to stop, and reconsider a few tactics,do you think they`d listen?

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL037906320071008

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RE: neo-con`s phony war on terror,is making things worse - 10/8/2007 9:31:30 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

If we asked them to stop, and reconsider a few tactics,do you think they`d listen?



Is the bear Catholic?

Does the Pope shit in the woods?

Well... there you have it.

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: neo-con`s phony war on terror,is making things worse - 10/8/2007 9:33:29 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
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Status: offline 		Nope.

One must look to the neo-cons' motives for that answer. Iraq has something they can sell, oil, add to that Israel's desires and you have a pretty nasty concoction. Oil is only part of the big picture, somewhat like phosphorous was in Viet Nam. Important, but there were other goals.

Funny, I can think of one Man who would do it, withdraw and seek to improve relations - Ron Paul. I don't think anyone else has even a snowballs chance in hell of winning that chair who would. And I am not sure Paul even has a chance. We'll see.

I am against Paul on abortion, but I do fully understand the reasoning behind his position. With that in mind I can see past that and will support him fully.

I can see the guy walking into Iran's equivalent to the Whitehouse and just saying "We can't just all bomb each other".

The argument that US policy is feeding new recruits to terrorist networks is not new. I have articles that are like three or four years old postulating exactly that. It has been a more common belief in the more enlightened countries of Europe for quite some time, and opinion polls in those places have shown a marked disapproval for US foreign policy. So this is old news to some.

It has been said even in the US media that Al Queada probably hoped Bush got reelected because there would be recruits lining up at the door. Rare in our controlled media yes, but sometimes something slips out.

And the fact of the matter is no matter what the opinion polls may say, I cannot find one single person in Cleveland that supports the war in Iraq.

T

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RE: neo-con`s phony war on terror,is making things worse - 10/8/2007 10:17:51 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		This information came out before the invasion. I cannot remember the think tank but all of their predictions came true. When people say support the war or not, there are varying degrees. I agree that we need a presense there, but not to do what we are doing. A systematic withdraw of troops will force the Iraqi officials to get their shit together. We cannot leave entirely, because we have an obligation to help rebuild some of what we tore down, and to protect them from neighboring countries. This could all be done with a fifth of the force there though, and without our soldiers and marines being directly in harms way.

Has anyone seen some of the pres candidates plans on Iraq?

Orion

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RE: neo-con`s phony war on terror,is making things worse - 10/8/2007 10:19:25 PM   
awmslave


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Status: offline 		I am skeptical about these armchair academics. Maybe we should learn from Russians. 1)     They ran from Afganistan and Taleban took over. Similar thing will probably happen in Iraq if US pulls out fast. Only full idiot would think UN can solve the problem (any serious problem). 2)     In Chechnya Russians killed about 25% of the population and then nominated local “strongman” with IQ of monkey Ramzan Kadyrov as a president. I think #2 would work in Iraq: just find a new US friendly Saddam.

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RE: neo-con`s phony war on terror,is making things worse - 10/8/2007 11:34:03 PM   
SuzanneKneeling


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quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave
I am skeptical about these armchair academics.


I guess the identical conclusion from every one of the 16 US intelligence agencies wouldn't move you either then. They probably have armchairs in their offices as well.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0925/dailyUpdate.html

quote:

They ran from Afganistan and Taleban took over. Similar thing will probably happen in Iraq if US pulls out fast.


Who will, exactly? "Al Qaida in Iraq", which comprises only 5% of the insurgency, is virtually unaffiliated with the group by the same name who attacked us, and has little in the way of support from the larger Sunni and Shiite factions? Has your brain perhaps been subsumed by the nightly pounding into your head of the "fight the terrorists there so we don't gots to fight 'em here" line of BS from the misleading demagogue who talked the country into this mistake in the first place? Something to consider. The media never puts his manipulative rhetoric into factual context - you need to actively work to keep your sense of reality these days when watching mainstream newscasts.

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RE: neo-con`s phony war on terror,is making things worse - 10/9/2007 12:01:32 AM   
awmslave


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quote:

I guess the identical conclusion from every one of the 16 US intelligence agencies wouldn't move you either then. They probably have armchairs in their offices as well.

I do agree with US intelligence estimate that the war breeds more “terrorists”. Although, I see it as a natural result that was expected. Nobody is suggesting that occupation of the country does not raise resistance. The tag “terrorist” does not even apply here. US intelligence has done lousy job regarding Iraq from the start. There credibility has suffered.   The fact is US needs to leave soon anyway as it can not financially sustain the war very long.  It is too late to whine about wrong decisions made in the past. The question is how to stabilize Iraq? What is wrong with my new “Saddam” idea? I doubt the proposed three state idea will ever materialize at least not without a major bloodshed.    

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RE: neo-con`s phony war on terror,is making things worse - 10/9/2007 12:06:17 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

If we asked them to stop, and reconsider a few tactics,do you think they`d listen?

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL037906320071008

 
My goodness, well if Reuters syndicates it, it must be so, eh? The Oxford Research Group has nothing to do with Oxford University, in case you don't realize that, it's a private think-tank with an anti-military agenda, "one of the UK’s leading advocates for the non-military resolution of global conflict."
 
K.
 

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RE: neo-con`s phony war on terror,is making things worse - 10/9/2007 12:11:05 AM   
SuzanneKneeling


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quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave
What is wrong with my new “Saddam” idea?


That's the same colonialization-by-proxy approach that we've been using in the middle east (and other areas of the world) for a century. Think about it - if you and I know that the new Saddam is just our puppet, then the locals are painfully aware of it too. How would you feel if a foreign army invaded your country, then left after setting up a puppet government headed by some white guy who was really working for them - siphoning off your country's natural resources for the enrichment of corporations back in the country of the invading power and so forth? Would you feel that everything was hunky dory and trade your Kalishnakov in for gardening tools? I'm guessing no.

A new paradigm for our foreign policy needs to be cultivated and followed. One that truly respects the humanity and right to life, sovereignty and self-determination of people of every country. (Even those who don't look or talk like us.) Anything else will simply keep us in the same cycle of endless militarism we're in.

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RE: neo-con`s phony war on terror,is making things worse - 10/9/2007 12:17:26 AM   
SuzanneKneeling


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
The Oxford Research Group has nothing to do with Oxford University, in case you don't realize that, it's a private think-tank with an anti-military agenda, "one of the UK’s leading advocates for the non-military resolution of global conflict."


And oddly enough they arrived at exactly the same conclusion that our 16 US intelligence agencies did. Funny that. I never realized our intelligence establishment was such a mindless horde of idealistic pacifist hippies.

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RE: neo-con`s phony war on terror,is making things worse - 10/9/2007 12:50:44 AM   
awmslave


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quote:

hat's the same colonialization-by-proxy approach that we've been using in the middle east (and other areas of the world) for a century. Think about it - if you and I know that the new Saddam is just our puppet, then the locals are painfully aware of it too. How would you feel if a foreign army invaded your country, then left after setting up a puppet government headed by some white guy who was really working for them - siphoning off your country's natural resources for the enrichment of corporations back in the country of the invading power and so forth? Would you feel that everything was hunky dory and trade your Kalishnakov in for gardening tools? I'm guessing no.
I do not argue against above statement. World politics is unjust. It is the most probable that Iraq will get a new dictator anyway after US leaves. Although, then it will be US unfriendly one. Us departure from “endless militarism” would not end militarism. It has given you and other Americans good and prosperous life. I am quite certain if US would fall and loose its strength democracy in the world will disappear. Western Europe can not stand alone against antidemocratic countries.

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RE: neo-con`s phony war on terror,is making things worse - 10/9/2007 1:03:37 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

I do not argue against above statement. World politics is unjust. It is the most probable that Iraq will get a new dictator anyway after US leaves. Although, then it will be US unfriendly one. Us departure from “endless militarism” would not end militarism. It has given you and other Americans good and prosperous life. I am quite certain if US would fall and loose its strength democracy in the world will disappear. Western Europe can not stand alone against antidemocratic countries.


Western Europe has a collective economy on par with the US (Germany alone is a bigger manufacturing exporter than the US, Britain has one of the leading financial markets in the world) but they prefer to spend their money on education and healthcare rather than US style militarization and while the US is dumb enough to throw its weight around, why should anyone else stop them?

As for standing against anti-democratic states, the US supports plenty of anti-democratic states, it just depends whether supporting an anti-democratic state is in the US's interest or not.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/9/2007 1:04:03 AM >

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RE: neo-con`s phony war on terror,is making things worse - 10/9/2007 1:46:49 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

My goodness, well if Reuters syndicates it, it must be so, eh? The Oxford Research Group has nothing to do with Oxford University, in case you don't realize that, it's a private think-tank with an anti-military agenda, "one of the UK’s leading advocates for the non-military resolution of global conflict."
 
K.
 


Formerly the Chamberlain Center for Appeasement Studies, wasn't it? 

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RE: neo-con`s phony war on terror,is making things worse - 10/9/2007 1:52:02 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

I am quite certain if US would fall and loose its strength democracy in the world will disappear. Western Europe can not stand alone against antidemocratic countries.


....and just how is it democratic for the US to insert a US friendly dictator into a foreign country? In order to be the champion of democracy you imply the US is, then it has to accept democratic decisions by those in other countries that don't necessarily have the US's best interests at heart. The strategy you suggest is fundamentally undemocratic.

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RE: neo-con`s phony war on terror,is making things worse - 10/9/2007 1:54:15 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

....and just how is it democratic for the US to insert a US friendly dictator into a foreign country?


Manifest Democracy? 

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RE: neo-con`s phony war on terror,is making things worse - 10/9/2007 1:56:37 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

....and just how is it democratic for the US to insert a US friendly dictator into a foreign country?


Manifest Democracy? 


 .......time for a new revolution yet?

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RE: neo-con`s phony war on terror,is making things worse - 10/9/2007 2:17:27 PM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

I am quite certain if US would fall and loose its strength democracy in the world will disappear. Western Europe can not stand alone against antidemocratic countries.


....and just how is it democratic for the US to insert a US friendly dictator into a foreign country? In order to be the champion of democracy you imply the US is, then it has to accept democratic decisions by those in other countries that don't necessarily have the US's best interests at heart. The strategy you suggest is fundamentally undemocratic.


Because it is the only way it will work.

We need to take a lesson from the Russians.

First off, remember Iraqis are a mix of different islamic tribes. And those tribes were held together under one government by a monarchy at first. There was a revolution and the monarchy was replaced by dictatorship. Now the US went in there, destroyed the dictatorship, and now suddenly these groups all want either total control over the country or they want independance. The only thing that were keeping Sunis, Shias, and Kurds together was a dictator forcing them to keep together.

And this is why Putin has been acting like a dictator in Russia lately. He knows he needs the central government in Moscow to be very strong and powerful in order to prevent the republics that make up the Russian Federation from wanting to break away (ie: Chechnya).

Democracy works great in some parts of the world. But it doesn't work well in others. If the dictator you are overthrowing is the only thing holding a country together, suddenly these different groups in that country is going to want to break away when that dictatorship is overthrown. Russia and China has known about that problem for centuries. Americans however are just starting to figure it out.

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RE: neo-con`s phony war on terror,is making things worse - 10/9/2007 2:22:38 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		...fair enough Cyberdude.....if you want US foreign policy to essentially deny self determination in order to enrich a central power base ala Putin and Chechyna, then that is your fairly expressed opinion. i was responding to someone who claimed though that the US was in Iraq promoting democracy, which is manifestly not the case.
Some people though may dispute the wisdom of oppressing people's desire to rule themselves in order to, allegedly, keep a foreign country comfortable.

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RE: neo-con`s phony war on terror,is making things worse - 10/9/2007 2:24:52 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		I agree.
If we know that al qeada and bin laden are in Pakistan we should go right in and get them!
Fuck this "nation building" in Iraq.

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RE: neo-con`s phony war on terror,is making things worse - 10/9/2007 2:29:05 PM   
cyberdude611


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Status: offline 		Im not saying what US foreign policy should be. That's another debate. I'm just trying to explain the situation that you really cannot just topple a dictator and prop up a democracy. It's a lot more complicated. What the US should have done was install a dictator that will slowly move the country towards democratic reforms. That way the central government is able to maintain control and security. Also in that situation, the government would be the ones fighting the insurgents and not the US army. We would be able to take a more support role and would probably only need half the troops that we have in there right now.

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