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Big Brother? - 10/8/2007 2:34:58 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		By Madison Park | Sun Reporter
Baltimore Sun

ABERDEEN, MARYLAND - Hoping to deter crime by expanding the use of surveillance cameras, Aberdeen passed a measure that empowers the city government and police to require cameras in new developments.

The Police Department, the Department of Planning and Community Development, and the Department of Public Works will decide whether a new residential, commercial or industrial development must install cameras at "strategic locations" before a development permit is issued.

The City Council passed the measure, which becomes effective next week, by a 4-1 vote.

Cameras installed at new developments will be connected to a watch room at the police station, Mayor S. Fred Simmons said.

Simmons said the police chief will work with the other departments to study the feasibility of installation and check whether a camera is "wanted and necessary" at new developments.

But the ordinance does not spell out guidelines for determining whether a new development will be required to have cameras, which concerned the lone dissenter on the council vote, Ruth Elliott.

"We have no internal procedures or policies on this," Elliott said. "It is vague, and you can read in between the lines."

Though crime is decreasing in Aberdeen, the city is seeking to prevent crime by expanding the camera program, Simmons said. The city installed cameras this year at two troubled intersections: one on Edmund and Washington streets and the other on East Bel Air and Aberdeen avenues.

The cameras can zoom in, rotate 360 degrees, and are monitored from the city's police station. Footage from the cameras has been used to prosecute drug cases.

"The cameras are going to see what the police officers are going to see," Simmons said. "It's another set of eyes. That's all."

Surveillance cameras are a familiar sight in larger cities such as New York and Chicago. In Baltimore, a network of about 400 surveillance cameras is in use. And smaller Maryland towns, including Preston and Ridgely in Caroline County, use surveillance cameras. The Harford County Sheriff's Office has been looking into bringing cameras to Edgewood.

Law enforcement officials have credited the cameras with providing information about suspects such as descriptions and license plate numbers.

Simmons said he is interested in expanding the camera program in Aberdeen to monitor traffic on U.S. 40, using cameras that can read license plate numbers and run them through a computer database to check whether a car is stolen or the registration is expired.

"You can't go to a supermarket, the ATM, or a drugstore without being camera'ed," Simmons said. "They're all camera'ed. ... Look up and there's three or four white cameras capturing everything on the state highway. We live in that age."

Elliott voiced discomfort with that notion.

"I don't care to have cameras everywhere in the city," the councilwoman said. "I'm supportive of having cameras in areas where there are problems."

Elliott said the ordinance doesn't protect average residents.

"Whatever that's caught on camera, that may not be of a criminal aspect, just a personal thing could be used depending on who is looking at those tapes," she said. "That info could be released to the wrong people - that's why we need tighter procedures and policies."

Elliott expressed concern that the two-sentence ordinance gives broad authority to the city without laying out parameters about how the city will determine whether a development should have cameras.

But Simmons said, "The reason why it's left open is that the whole landscape changes all the time."

Melissa Ngo, senior counsel of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, also questioned an ordinance that lacked guidelines on determining where cameras would be required.

"How are they going to decide?" said Ngo, whose Washington-based organization studies civil liberty and privacy issues. "If this is going to be low-income development, are they going to watch over the poor people? If this is going to be fancy condos, are they going to decide that they don't need to look over those people?"

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/harford/bal-ha.camera07oct07,0,1394895.story
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RE: Big Brother? - 10/8/2007 6:02:51 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		We live in interesting times:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1964707186772642906&q=taser+death&total=52&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=7

He was handcuffed behind his back and in leg restraints, following an epileptic seizure at his home; an ambulance was called by his wife and son, but the police arrived first. His last words were: "Don't kill me, man. Don't kill me."

And the cops tell him: "Stop resisting." One presumes that was for the cameras...

(in reply to cyberdude611)
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RE: Big Brother? - 10/8/2007 6:43:06 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		The Department of Justice today hailed the use of stun guns and tasers saying they have saved the lives of hundreds and only 3 people have died.

Human rights groups heavily disagree though claiming they have documented at least 277 deaths related to tasers and stun guns.

So someone is not telling the truth...

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RE: Big Brother? - 10/8/2007 7:03:15 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

The Department of Justice today hailed the use of stun guns and tasers saying they have saved the lives of hundreds and only 3 people have died.

Human rights groups heavily disagree though claiming they have documented at least 277 deaths related to tasers and stun guns.

So someone is not telling the truth...

cyberdude:
I guess we could check the record and see who has a history of lying and who has a history of telling the truth.
thompson

(in reply to cyberdude611)
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RE: Big Brother? - 10/8/2007 7:12:02 PM   
HottLicks


Posts: 174
Joined: 9/21/2007
Status: offline 		Are we talking housing developments at all?  I have no problem with accepting the fact that I have to accept the fact that there are cams in business area's and for traffic, but in housing area's I have a serious problem.  I wouldn't buy in an area that had cams where I dwell.  I can do my own neighborhood watch.  I find it unsettling that while doing yard work, I might bend a certain way and give a bored officer watching my neighborhood a shot of something I would typically cover, but might not be able to.  Okay, my problems with this is much more serious, but still... I expect to get beads if I am going to give a booby shot!

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RE: Big Brother? - 10/8/2007 7:35:37 PM   
sundownhawk


Posts: 151
Joined: 8/17/2007
Status: offline 		Some of these politicians kill me. They are worried about the city or police department releasing a tape that may contain personal activities. First I find it highly doubtful that would happen and if it ever did most likely the employee who released it would be fired. I wonder if they have an ordinance against a private citizen running a video camera on a public street. I guess what many people fail to realize is that there is no expectation of privacy when you are out in public. But then again this story sounds like it is more about an internal political debate than about using cameras. They use cameras quite a bit in Chicago and have had excellent success with them.

_____________________________

The number one job of the dominant is to continually seduce consent from the bottom. ~Joseph W. Bean~

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RE: Big Brother? - 10/8/2007 8:32:49 PM   
slaverosebeauty


Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/12/2004
From: Cali
Status: offline 		If you aren't doing anything wrong, why should you care??
 
Its a great deturent in areas where law enforceemnt can't be everywhere and where its needed.  Knowing that yuoa re beign filmed may get some people to think twice before robbing that person or commiting that murder, etc.  I am all for making things safer.  Too many people do NOT look out for eachother, if we did, fewer crimes would be committed.  If you don't like the cameras, then be proactive and help DO something.   

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"Friends live on in our hearts, regardless if they are here or not."

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RE: Big Brother? - 10/8/2007 8:47:41 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty

If you aren't doing anything wrong, why should you care??
 
Its a great deturent in areas where law enforceemnt can't be everywhere and where its needed.  Knowing that yuoa re beign filmed may get some people to think twice before robbing that person or commiting that murder, etc.  I am all for making things safer.  Too many people do NOT look out for eachother, if we did, fewer crimes would be committed.  If you don't like the cameras, then be proactive and help DO something.   

Define wrong. Sunbathing topless/nude in your fenced in yard? Engaging in consensual sexual activity inside your home?

Realize that this law says any new development so a very discreet camera on top of a utility pole could observe virtually an entire subdivision and with good thermal imaging gear the same camera could see into nearby houses.

I've got no real problem with jurisidctions putting up very visible cameras at dangerous intersections to cut down on accidents. Chicago did this quite close to where I live and reports are that accidents are down more than 50%. But set up so they can look onto private property? No thanks.

(in reply to slaverosebeauty)
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RE: Big Brother? - 10/8/2007 9:12:12 PM   
slaverosebeauty


Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/12/2004
From: Cali
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty

If you aren't doing anything wrong, why should you care??
 
Its a great deturent in areas where law enforceemnt can't be everywhere and where its needed.  Knowing that yuoa re beign filmed may get some people to think twice before robbing that person or commiting that murder, etc.  I am all for making things safer.  Too many people do NOT look out for eachother, if we did, fewer crimes would be committed.  If you don't like the cameras, then be proactive and help DO something.   

Define wrong. Sunbathing topless/nude in your fenced in yard? Engaging in consensual sexual activity inside your home?

Realize that this law says any new development so a very discreet camera on top of a utility pole could observe virtually an entire subdivision and with good thermal imaging gear the same camera could see into nearby houses.

I've got no real problem with jurisidctions putting up very visible cameras at dangerous intersections to cut down on accidents. Chicago did this quite close to where I live and reports are that accidents are down more than 50%. But set up so they can look onto private property? No thanks.


"wrong" as in illegal.  I gave a few examples of what makes it a great idea, take a few moments to READ what I wrote.  I don't know about you, but I keep my blinds closed when I sleep or engage in 'adult' activites, for privacy reasons.
 
So no, I do NOT have a problem with what was beign discussed.  People need ot take some initative and responsibility not only in their our homes, neighborhoods and communities but in general.

Have I sunbathed topless or nude in my back yard? Yep.  I knew the risks, it didn't bother me.  Have I engaged in adult activies in my home? Yep.  Drapes were closed. No issues.     

_____________________________

http://slaverosebeauty.livejournal.com/

"Friends live on in our hearts, regardless if they are here or not."

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Big Brother? - 10/8/2007 9:19:56 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty
Have I sunbathed topless or nude in my back yard? Yep.  I knew the risks, it didn't bother me.  Have I engaged in adult activies in my home? Yep.  Drapes were closed. No issues.     

Close anything you want, a decent thermal imaging camera can pick you up inside your home pretty clearly. I know a fair number of cops and some would simply perv watching some woman sunbathe nude but some would make videos and then they'd get out on the net or get used as blackmail.

Keep government cameras pointed so that they don't look onto private property and I'm fine with it otherwise they need to get a warrant.

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RE: Big Brother? - 10/8/2007 10:28:48 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		you have that already in any city or state that has traffic laws that permit cameras at every traffic light and stop sign and prosecution with them.  Think about it, law enforcement sees everything that goes on around every traffic device...that's alot of area.
l

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RE: Big Brother? - 10/9/2007 4:32:38 PM   
HottLicks


Posts: 174
Joined: 9/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty

If you aren't doing anything wrong, why should you care??
 
Its a great deturent in areas where law enforceemnt can't be everywhere and where its needed.  Knowing that yuoa re beign filmed may get some people to think twice before robbing that person or commiting that murder, etc.  I am all for making things safer.  Too many people do NOT look out for eachother, if we did, fewer crimes would be committed.  If you don't like the cameras, then be proactive and help DO something.   


I care because I don't like knowing what could come of this.  To argue it with you or anyone else, isn't my thing, but I had to address something you said.  You jumped on someone else for jumping to a conclusion, so let me treat you in kind.

Personally I have started and finished many neighborhood clean ups.  I have been a thorn in a couple of Mayors sides... My house sent out more 911 calls than anyone in the area.  I have faced off with the criminals on both sides of the badge.  I had to bring my um's up in some of the worst area's of major cities and all I had was me and redheaded determination.  Did anyone help me?  Hell no!  But just one person can make a difference.  It was easier for the bad guys to move to the next neighborhood.

I will not live in fear.  I will not live afraid of those on the wrong side of the law or those with a badge... and although there are some good guys on both sides... there are some bad one's too.  I will protect um's at any cost, even my own life.  I don't care what anyone does behind close doors, but I will be darned if they are going to do it in my neighborhood putting others at risk!

Why do you assume that we are doing nothing but complaining about being watched by the good guys?  If you want to project that is fine, but when you come out and project and then attack... well... guess what...

Power in the wrong hands can corrupt.  Many lives were given fighting for the rights we have in this country. (Not getting into recent war actions here.)  Do you wish to join the groups taking away our rights?  Here they may just be watching... but you know... I see a lot of ways this can and will go somewhere, someplace by someone.  One right taken for national security... another to protect for another reason from another idiot and pretty soon, on a technicality... someone suffers from that loss and all who died defending the original rights could have stayed home and lived cause in the end... we let them take them from us.


(in reply to slaverosebeauty)
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RE: Big Brother? - 10/9/2007 4:50:53 PM   
ChicagoSwitchMal


Posts: 417
Joined: 9/9/2007
Status: offline 		We lose the right to privacy as soon as we step out into public. Camera's with FIXED angles pointing towards public places don't bother me even if it's in a residential area. But 360 degree cameras with zoom? Fuck No. It's human curiousity to want to peek. There is no way in my mind this wouldnt be abused unless a civilian watchdog who can't control the camera (so they can't "peek") is seeing what the cops who can control the camera see. Someone needs to watch the watcher.

(in reply to HottLicks)
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RE: Big Brother? - 10/14/2007 4:30:05 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		nothing is private- anything can cos a stampede.

(in reply to ChicagoSwitchMal)
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RE: Big Brother? - 10/14/2007 5:06:09 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty

If you aren't doing anything wrong, why should you care??
 


People should care a lot.

I'd be very wary of the road this will send you down: it will create a culture of "it's ok to be watched".

In England, we have a camera for every 14 people; the cameras were the first on the road to a surveillance culture. Today, we have stop and search laws, detention without trial, and other proposed schemes such as ID cards and DNA databases. This is a result of the culture that "it's ok to be watched". We've had people thrown out of conferences for daring to disagree with politicians, we have a Home Secretary who wants the power to be able to pick people up off the streets and throw them out of the country on the grounds of being a SUSPECTED terrorist - ain't that abduction?

Of course, we need these for our safety, and if we haven't done anything wrong, then we shouldn't be concerned. Not quite, because it's underpinned by the government definition of "wrong": I don't think it is wrong to protest government policy, they may have a different take on the matter.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Big Brother? - 10/14/2007 5:56:16 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal

We lose the right to privacy as soon as we step out into public.



Having your movements traced and interacting with the public are two different matters altogether.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to ChicagoSwitchMal)
Profile   Post #: 16
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