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shades of tiananmen? - 9/27/2007 9:00:54 PM   
girl4you2


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so does anyone else think that what's going on in myanmar is a little too reminiscent of china and tiananmen square and/or tibet? peaceful protest begets violence. "and i think to myself, what a wonderful world...."

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RE: shades of tiananmen? - 9/27/2007 9:07:18 PM   
MasterKalif


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Status: offline 		Yes it is a truly sad state of affairs in Myanmar (ex Burma). I think the Junta leaders are counter-productive, have outlived their usefulness, and are keeping the country backwards. If at least the economy was doing stellar, people would not mind the democratic opposition too much. But on top of all, Myanmar is a poor country, no stellar economic growth, and repressive, and to top it all off the regime is discredit as they lost elections in 1990 only to "take the elections back" by force....all ingredients for a violent overthrow.

That is why third world communist regimes fail. I think the world should be more severe with them rather than other less hardcore dictatorships.

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RE: shades of tiananmen? - 9/27/2007 9:09:39 PM   
MasterKalif


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Status: offline 		sorry...just realized I did not answer the main question: I do see some shades of Tiananmen not in terms of a massacre, but rather as a peaceful opposition been trampled on by an overpowerful dictatorship bent on not relinquishing power at any cost. At least China has taken off economically, Myanmar has not.

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RE: shades of tiananmen? - 9/27/2007 9:11:58 PM   
Alumbrado


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Status: offline 		Shades of Gandhi, et al.

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RE: shades of tiananmen? - 9/27/2007 9:36:35 PM   
sundownhawk


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Status: offline 		Burma is currently ranked dead last for freedom in the world. Although it does have shades of Tiananmen written all over it I think it has the potential to turn out far worse.

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RE: shades of tiananmen? - 9/27/2007 9:42:15 PM   
cyberdude611


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Status: offline 		"Those that make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy

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RE: shades of tiananmen? - 9/27/2007 9:49:49 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		"Sic Semper Tyrannus."
I'm glad we have the Second Amendment in this country.

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RE: shades of tiananmen? - 9/28/2007 2:42:00 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		Going off the question, but what always annoys me about these situations is the enormous volume of words that pour forth from our politicians' mouths about how awful it is and how someone ought to do something etc, and then when the massacre has occurred, how we must never let this happen again.

How many times have I heard this guff I wonder? We all know its awful, we would like to do something about it and we grow tired of the recurrent failure to prevent the same thing somewhere else the following year. But nothing happens, at all - because no one steps up to do anything and if they do then there's carping about it from those who would rather trade with viscious dictators or support them for racial reasons (I'm thinking Zimbabwe and the African Union on that one).

If it is acceptable to intervene in Iraq to produce regime change in the light of an obviously malevolent regime there - and this is the line we're peddled now that the WMDs are nowhere to be found - then how is it impossible to intervene in Burma, Darfur, Zimbabwe and no doubt a host of other places of similar nature? We paid no heed to the UN over Iraq, so thats no reason. And remember, Burma has oil and is surrounded by friendly states too. The Indian army must outnumber the Burmese by a hundred to one for a start.

E

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RE: shades of tiananmen? - 9/28/2007 2:57:15 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
how is it impossible to intervene in Burma, Darfur, Zimbabwe and no doubt a host of other places of similar nature?
The misery in those countries has been engineered. Darfur is easy: oil - start a civil war to evict the bothersome locals and pump up the oil. Zimbabwe and other totalitarian states have a different motivation: let the criminal underdogs defeat and exterminate the ruling classes and cause the misery in the country to peak and the country to weaken, then invade, defeat the culprits, take over the country and introduce democracy and your own ruling class. It is simple - and it is the reason why no intervention occurs at this time, because that would be contraproductive.

< Message edited by Rule -- 9/28/2007 3:25:26 AM >

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RE: shades of tiananmen? - 9/28/2007 3:24:22 AM   
Level


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Status: offline 		If we intervene, we're militiristic (sp?) bastards.
 
If we don't intervene, we're heartless bastards.
 
Damned if you do, damned if you don't..... tends to make some think "fuck 'em".

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RE: shades of tiananmen? - 9/28/2007 3:28:52 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		oh dont get me wrong; I fully understand why we dont do anything - its just the guff from politicians annoys me no end. The only mystery really is why we did intervene in Iraq, considering the strategic situation -but then I think we know the reason for that one, however ill conceived it was overall.

E

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RE: shades of tiananmen? - 9/28/2007 3:36:46 AM   
Level


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Status: offline 		Yes, the politicians and their babble is annoying, I agree.
 
Looking at the map, China being right there, I'm sure is a deterrent, as well. I imagine they would be extremely alarmed were someone to go adventuring into Burma.
 
It's all sad. I remember reading about Aung San Suu Kyi a few years ago, in the New Yorker, I think. She's a wonderful woman, from what I remember, and quite brave. How much better of would their people be with her in power?

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RE: shades of tiananmen? - 9/28/2007 3:48:37 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

oh dont get me wrong; I fully understand why we dont do anything - its just the guff from politicians annoys me no end. The only mystery really is why we did intervene in Iraq, considering the strategic situation -but then I think we know the reason for that one, however ill conceived it was overall.

E


Oil is the reason for the military intervention in Iraq and the reason there won't be a military intervention in Burma and Darfur, their resources are China's interest and to intervene would be to confront China. Zimbawe can go and fuck itself because they have got nothing worth having.

That is how the world works unfortunately, the rest as you rightly suggest is hot air, the wringing of hands and crocodile tears.

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RE: shades of tiananmen? - 9/28/2007 10:16:56 AM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

oh dont get me wrong; I fully understand why we dont do anything - its just the guff from politicians annoys me no end. The only mystery really is why we did intervene in Iraq, considering the strategic situation -but then I think we know the reason for that one, however ill conceived it was overall.

E


Oil is the reason for the military intervention in Iraq and the reason there won't be a military intervention in Burma and Darfur, their resources are China's interest and to intervene would be to confront China. Zimbawe can go and fuck itself because they have got nothing worth having.

That is how the world works unfortunately, the rest as you rightly suggest is hot air, the wringing of hands and crocodile tears.


No, the reason is China. The Chinese are in support of the Myanmar regime.
Its the same reason the US did not go into Iran in 1979 because then that would have pissed off the Soviet Union.

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RE: shades of tiananmen? - 9/28/2007 10:24:17 AM   
Alumbrado


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RE: shades of tiananmen? - 9/28/2007 11:21:08 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

If we intervene, we're militiristic (sp?) bastards.
 
If we don't intervene, we're heartless bastards.
 
Damned if you do, damned if you don't..... tends to make some think "fuck 'em".


...speaking only for myself i'd be a lot more respectful of consistent bastards than inconsistent ones. At least consistent bastards are honest.

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RE: shades of tiananmen? - 9/29/2007 7:25:50 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

oh dont get me wrong; I fully understand why we dont do anything - its just the guff from politicians annoys me no end. The only mystery really is why we did intervene in Iraq, considering the strategic situation -but then I think we know the reason for that one, however ill conceived it was overall.

E


Oil is the reason for the military intervention in Iraq and the reason there won't be a military intervention in Burma and Darfur, their resources are China's interest and to intervene would be to confront China. Zimbawe can go and fuck itself because they have got nothing worth having.

That is how the world works unfortunately, the rest as you rightly suggest is hot air, the wringing of hands and crocodile tears.


No, the reason is China. The Chinese are in support of the Myanmar regime.
Its the same reason the US did not go into Iran in 1979 because then that would have pissed off the Soviet Union.


Which is what I said. Burmese resources are China's interest. The US didn't go into Iran in 1979 because they were kicked out and no matter how creative US propaganda could have been, there is no way they could have made a case that they were doing it for to free the Iranian people when the US had materially and diplomatically supported the oppressive regime that kept the Iranian people subjugated.

That being said, Carter didn't want to invade Iran, he could see the stupidity of such an adventure. I never noticed Reagan enthusiastic for an invasion either and I doubt it was anything to do with Russia.

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RE: shades of tiananmen? - 9/29/2007 11:19:23 AM   
MasterKalif


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Status: offline 		meatcleaver, what you say is true...US non intervention in Iran had nothing to do with the Soviet Union; as a matter of fact the Soviet regime was not warm towards the Ayatollahs and the Ayatolahs despised the Soviet Union second after the US. I think the US made a mistake not to help out H.I.M the Shah as repressive as his regime could have been, at least it was a civilized modern country going forward...sadly we could not say the same of Iran today.

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RE: shades of tiananmen? - 9/29/2007 11:22:41 AM   
MasterKalif


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Status: offline 		LadyEllen,
In my opinion no armed intervention is necessary...plnety of locals in Myanmar and within Zimbabwe despise those regimes, they just lack organization or the means to overthrow those regimes. What can be done is an approchament with local groups, help them with money and weapons, and allow them to become a local formidable force; CIA style assasinations always help too, to tip the balance of things.

In my opinion, the UK should condemn the Harare regime much strongly and should have intervened a long time ago to protect the British population there as well as the sons of British settlers as well....but they did nothing and Zimbabwe went from becoming one of the most prosperous countries in Africa to just another basket case.

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