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Dems abandoning Florida? - 9/23/2007 11:42:24 AM

cyberdude611

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Dems may be throwing away 27 electoral votes before the election even starts... Democratic leaders in Florida is at complete odds with the national party and neither side is going to budge.

The fight is over what date Florida should be allowed to have it's primary. The state decided to move up its primary to Jan 29 which is a violation of the rules in both political parties. However the punishment by the GOP is nowhere near as severe as the punishment by Democrats. The GOP will only penalize half of Florida's delegates. But the Democrats will force Florida to give up ALL its delegates and also prohibit any Democratic candidate from campaigning in Florida (except for fundraisers).

Both GOP and Democratic analysts say this will have an extremely negative effect on the Democrats and may cost them what has been historically a critical battleground state. A state where Hillary already has a very high negative rating.

----------------------------------------------------
BAY AREA (Bay News 9) -- Florida Democrats said the polls will open January 29 despite the punishment of losing 210 delegates to the National Democratic Nominating Convention.

National party rules prohibit any state from holding its 2008 primaries before February 5, with the exception of a handful of states.

Florida Democratic leaders still have five days to change their minds, but they said that won't happen. They said 75 percent of the committee members support the early date.

Both Bay News 9's Democratic and Republican analysts think this decision is likely to have a negative impact.

"They'll be a lot of Democratic donors who don't want to give because they're so upset with this," Democratic analyst Bob Buckhorn said.

"It will have an adverse impact on the Democrats," Republican analyst Bob Martinez said. "By virtue of the feeling of being ignored, being, 'you'll come here for my money, but not for our vote.' "

All the major Democratic candidates have signed a pledge to stop campaigning in Florida if the rules are broken. Those candidates would come to the state only if they're holding a fundraiser, not for campaign stops.

The state's Democratic leaders are expected to hold a news conference this afternoon to elaborate on their position.

http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2007/9/23/289894.html?title=Primary+scramble

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RE: Dems abandoning Florida? - 9/23/2007 11:45:40 AM

pahunkboy

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time to go to the popular vote. the electoral vote is obsolete- and no longer viable

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RE: Dems abandoning Florida? - 9/23/2007 11:50:32 AM

cyberdude611

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No they need to reform the primary system. This is getting rediculous with each state trying to hopscotch each other because New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Iowa think they are better than everyone else. Just have a national primary day where every state votes on the same day. Problem solved.

The reason we have the electoral college is because we are a union of states and the constitution specifically states that each state has the right to conduct their own elections.

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RE: Dems abandoning Florida? - 9/23/2007 12:03:54 PM

pahunkboy

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as a rule i cringe at changing the constitution. but in this case- letssssssssss doit

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RE: Dems abandoning Florida? - 9/23/2007 12:05:33 PM

farglebargle

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You both BELIEVE the system is any less scripted than Pro Wrasslin???

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RE: Dems abandoning Florida? - 9/23/2007 12:07:05 PM

pahunkboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

You both BELIEVE the system is any less scripted than Pro Wrasslin???

LMAO- thats abit cynical. we have no chance what so ever???

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RE: Dems abandoning Florida? - 9/23/2007 12:11:35 PM

farglebargle

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"The Future's here. We are it.
WE ARE ON OUR OWN."

So, yeah. Pretty much. If the government will withhold due process and equal protection, then we're well and truly fucked, and no phony election will change anything.

Remember, the purpose of the election is to provide the appearance of just enough legitimacy to get away with it.

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RE: Dems abandoning Florida? - 9/23/2007 12:14:16 PM

cyberdude611

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Then what kind of government do you want, fargle. It seems you will have a problem with every democracy since every election is tainted. So do you want an oligarchy or a dictatorship or what you want?

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RE: Dems abandoning Florida? - 9/23/2007 1:06:04 PM

pahunkboy

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an elephant on a chain wil only go as far as the chain even when the chain is removed.

America is about land of dreams. That has bailed us out, the creative thinkers- those that think outside the box- and defy conventional wisdom. When we dare to dream, we can prevail. When we stop any dreams- and cave into gloom, we ARE the elephant who in his/her head remains on the chain.

See?

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RE: Dems abandoning Florida? - 9/23/2007 1:11:55 PM

LotusSong

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

The fight is over what date Florida should be allowed to have it's primary. The state decided to move up its primary to Jan 29 which is a violation of the rules in both political parties.

(Bay News 9) -- Florida Democrats said the polls will open January 29 despite the punishment of losing 210 delegates to the National Democratic Nominating Convention.

National party rules prohibit any state from holding its 2008 primaries before February 5, with the exception of a handful of states.

Florida Democratic leaders still have five days to change their minds, but they said that won't happen. They said 75 percent of the committee members support the early date.

Simple solution: If Florida wants to break the rules- negate ANY electoral votes from them.

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RE: Dems abandoning Florida? - 9/23/2007 1:37:42 PM

cyberdude611

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

The fight is over what date Florida should be allowed to have it's primary. The state decided to move up its primary to Jan 29 which is a violation of the rules in both political parties.

(Bay News 9) -- Florida Democrats said the polls will open January 29 despite the punishment of losing 210 delegates to the National Democratic Nominating Convention.

National party rules prohibit any state from holding its 2008 primaries before February 5, with the exception of a handful of states.

Florida Democratic leaders still have five days to change their minds, but they said that won't happen. They said 75 percent of the committee members support the early date.

Simple solution: If Florida wants to break the rules- negate ANY electoral votes from them.

You cant. The primaries are not a constitutional process....they are a process sanctioned by the political parties. A primary election is not required.

As for the general election, the constitution says that all states are on the same day and there is no possible way you can punish a state's electoral votes. Doing so could trigger a Civil War and a major constitutional crisis. If the federal government refused Florida's electoral votes, Florida will then declare they don't have to abide by the federal government or pay any taxes to the federal government if their representation is revoked.

So this will never happen. And there is nothing in the constitution that would allow the feds to punish Florida in the general election. Florida is not violating a federal election law. They are violating a rule set by the national committees of the two major political parties. Legally, the political parties can punish Florida in their conventions...they cannot punish Florida in the general election. They also cannot force Florida to move its election.

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 9/23/2007 2:05:01 PM >

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RE: Dems abandoning Florida? - 9/23/2007 3:43:15 PM

LightHeartedMaam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

You cant. The primaries are not a constitutional process....they are a process sanctioned by the political parties. A primary election is not required.

As for the general election, the constitution says that all states are on the same day and there is no possible way you can punish a state's electoral votes. Doing so could trigger a Civil War and a major constitutional crisis. If the federal government refused Florida's electoral votes, Florida will then declare they don't have to abide by the federal government or pay any taxes to the federal government if their representation is revoked.

So this will never happen. And there is nothing in the constitution that would allow the feds to punish Florida in the general election. Florida is not violating a federal election law. They are violating a rule set by the national committees of the two major political parties. Legally, the political parties can punish Florida in their conventions...they cannot punish Florida in the general election. They also cannot force Florida to move its election.

Thanks for that information, cyberdude611. Why does Florida want to do this to begin with? The only reason I can think of is that it's a red state, run by the president's brother and the republicans want to know who the dems are going to champion so they can select someone that that will give them a better edge.

< Message edited by LightHeartedMaam -- 9/23/2007 3:44:05 PM >

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RE: Dems abandoning Florida? - 9/23/2007 4:12:57 PM

cyberdude611

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Florida isn't ran by Jeb anymore, he had to step down due to term limits. The governor is now Charlie Crist who was Jeb's Attorney General.

The state government is very heavily GOP and the GOP has big majorities in both state houses. So some have claimed that the GOP changed the date on purpose to give the Dems a disadvantage. But I don't really buy into that because the Democrats went along with the change and voted with the GOP. The Democrats are also not demanding that the date be moved and seem to want the election to take place on the 29th. The reason Florida moved up was because they believed that because of their growing economy and diverse population, that it should play a bigger role in election politics. And that the old system of only Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina is archaic and needs to change.

Florida is also not alone in this. More than a dozen states have moved their primaries up to February 5th. Michigan wants to move up to Jan 15 and Arizona wants to move up even further than that (both AZ and MI have Democrat governors). So I don't think it was an orchestrated attempt by the GOP because states that are run by Democrats are also trying to jump up. It's starting to not really be a Republican vs. Democrat issue....it's becoming an internal debate between state and national political parties. But this type of thing can change the outcome of an election. I mean these state parties are VITAL to the national party winning the state. Not just campaign wise but also fundraising. The state parties are the ones that do the grass roots campaigning.

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 9/23/2007 4:15:44 PM >

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RE: Dems abandoning Florida? - 9/23/2007 4:26:33 PM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Then what kind of government do you want, fargle. It seems you will have a problem with every democracy since every election is tainted. So do you want an oligarchy or a dictatorship or what you want?

I'd *LOVE* a Constitutional Republic.

A COMPETENT Empire would be acceptable.

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