RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins

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ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins (9/23/2007 11:11:18 AM)
Reminds me of a case I heard about a few years ago. A lesbian contracted a male friend to inseminate her because she wanted a child then turned around and sued him for child support. Despite the contract it was judged in her favor because the child "was concienved in the usual and costomary manner". In that case I think the guy was stupid for signing a contract which basically was prostitution on paper and not seeing what most of us know know was a trap from a mile away.

FullCircle -> RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins (9/23/2007 12:02:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal Reminds me of a case I heard about a few years ago. A lesbian contracted a male friend to inseminate her because she wanted a child then turned around and sued him for child support. Despite the contract it was judged in her favor because the child "was concienved in the usual and costomary manner". In that case I think the guy was stupid for signing a contract which basically was prostitution on paper and not seeing what most of us know know was a trap from a mile away. Morality and law don’t have much in common at times it seems but that's life.

ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins (9/23/2007 12:07:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FullCircle quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal Reminds me of a case I heard about a few years ago. A lesbian contracted a male friend to inseminate her because she wanted a child then turned around and sued him for child support. Despite the contract it was judged in her favor because the child "was concienved in the usual and costomary manner". In that case I think the guy was stupid for signing a contract which basically was prostitution on paper and not seeing what most of us know know was a trap from a mile away. Morality and law don’t have much in common at times it seems but that's life. Word. But I'd run like hell from a country where morality and law matched. lol

tsatske -> RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins (9/23/2007 12:11:14 PM)
The 'customary and usual manner' was brought into question because, basicly, he wsa claiming protection as a sperm donor. Normally, a woman can not sign away 'her' right to child support, because under the law, she has no right to child support. The child does. so, if it isn't the child signing, then the parent is signing in proxy for the child. And anytime a gaurdian signs in proxy for a minor, the court is allowed to intervene and ask if this contract is in the best interest of the child. It is standard case law that signing away the right to financial support from both parents is not in the interest of the child, unless the child is recieving something better - as with an adoption, the child gains a new parent to replace the one being signed away, and the new parent is presumably more interested, more involved and better able to provide.

LadyEllen -> RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins (9/23/2007 12:14:29 PM)
So the issue then, is the additional cost of raising a second child compared to that anticipated in raising the first? I suggest instructing them to give one child up to state care, so relieving them of the burden. And if they go for that then I'd take both off them and provide hysterectomies on the grounds that neither is fit to be a parent. E

Sanity -> RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins (9/23/2007 12:16:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAmayeta I feel sorry for the twins. One will grow up never feeling wanted and loved. It's the same as telling your children "We never wanted you but here you are and now we're stuck raising you. Aren't we nice?". How sad is that? It's not sad at all. The kid will just grow up tough and mean, maybe make a good Dom or Domme, whatever the case may be. It takes all kinds of circumstances to turn out all kinds of people, and it takes all kinds of people to make the world go 'round. Hell, I was an impossible accident. The Doc told my Mom she was completely, irreversibly, 100% sterile before my two older siblings were born. After me, my Dad got cut, enough was enough, they weren't taking any chances - it was made clear my whole life that I was never wanted... but that's okay. I just smiled inside, knowing that. I had beat all the odds, and so I felt like whatever's coming next didn't matter, I'd kick its ass too. It's been an interesting life, and I wouldn't change a thing about it.

ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins (9/23/2007 12:25:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tsatske The 'customary and usual manner' was brought into question because, basicly, he wsa claiming protection as a sperm donor. Normally, a woman can not sign away 'her' right to child support, because under the law, she has no right to child support. The child does. so, if it isn't the child signing, then the parent is signing in proxy for the child. And anytime a gaurdian signs in proxy for a minor, the court is allowed to intervene and ask if this contract is in the best interest of the child. It is standard case law that signing away the right to financial support from both parents is not in the interest of the child, unless the child is recieving something better - as with an adoption, the child gains a new parent to replace the one being signed away, and the new parent is presumably more interested, more involved and better able to provide. Absolutely true. That's why I said the guy was stupid for not seeing a trap a mile away. Like how some people think a prenuptual agreement protects them. It does - unless a child is born of the marrage or a parent legally adopts the others child(ren). The kid(s) did not sign the prenup. I specifically did not specify gender here becuase, although it happens mostly to men, it can happen to either sex, as Britney Spears is slowly learning. She had a prenup.

CuriousLord -> RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins (9/23/2007 12:50:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FullCircle quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Kinda funny to think about. Her egg divided.. not the sperm's fault, right? So her bad. Depends what types of twins they are paternal or maternal etc. Two sperms one egg Two sperms two eggs One fertilised egg that subsequently divides in two Those are your options for twins I think. Yeah, it's the third one I'm thinking, due to the method. (Since, isn't it adding a sperm to the egg manually? Not sure if the first two are possible when this method's conducted properly- unless they use multiple sperm or so?)

FullCircle -> RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins (9/23/2007 12:53:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: FullCircle quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Kinda funny to think about. Her egg divided.. not the sperm's fault, right? So her bad. Depends what types of twins they are paternal or maternal etc. Two sperms one egg Two sperms two eggs One fertilised egg that subsequently divides in two Those are your options for twins I think. Yeah, it's the third one I'm thinking, due to the method. (Since, isn't it adding a sperm to the egg manually? Not sure if the first two are possible when this method's conducted properly- unless they use multiple sperm or so?) Good point but I think they fertilise more than one egg to maximise the chance of success.

SusanofO -> RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins (9/23/2007 1:46:45 PM)
They're after the money. IMO, maybe I am just jaded (my sister is a lawyer, and I hear all manner of horror stories from her) BUT - IMO it's likely it has not much to do with them being angry at having an extra child - at least I'd bet my savings on it. I bet if someone offered tommorrow to take that second child off their hands, and offerred a good home for the child to be raised in, they wouldn't even consider parting with the second child. If someone asked this couple, they'd say that it's not all about the money, I'm sure - but if someone tried the above, then I'd bet they'd find out pretty quickly what the priorities of this couple really are. Money. I am not saying it isn't expensive to raise kids, but like someone mentioned, when you do IVF, there are inherent risks - and this is one of them, from what I've read. For Christs's sake, IMO they should act like adults and just "Bite the bullet". Just Do It. This is only one in a long line of confusing situations they may well face as parents - of any child. So they better decide how they are going to deal. Like adults, or like whiny adult impersonators, who want the government, their doctor, or the rest of the world to deal with their life, and the choices they make. I am betting (or maybe just hoping) they lose their case. For one thing, IMO if they win, it sets a terrible (and IMO morally questionable) legal precedent - in terms of any future genetic engineering mis-haps that may occur when that kind of opportunity becomes more wide-spread (and I am betting it will - it's just a matter of time, IMO). I don't even want to think about living in a world where parents sue a doctor, because Junior was born with blue eyes instead of brown eyes, or doesn't have the inherent althetic or scholastic ability they programmed him to have, etc., etc.,. It just gives me the creeps. It devalues basic humanity, IMO, and seems to presume a lack of individual liberty on the part of the child, as far as self-determination. I'd be interested to find out what the final legal outcome is, of this case. - Susan

ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins (9/23/2007 1:51:27 PM)
I don't think two sperm can fertilize one egg but I could be wrong. I took this next part from wikipedia. In vitro fertilization[1] (IVF) is a technique in which egg cells are fertilised by sperm outside the woman's womb, in vitro. IVF is a major treatment in infertility when other methods of assisted reproductive technology have failed. The process involves hormonally controlling the ovulatory process, removing ova (eggs) from the woman's ovaries and letting sperm fertilise them in a fluid medium. The fertilised egg (zygote) is then transferred to the patient's uterus with the intent to establish a successful pregnancy. If this is the case then I think it would depend on what type of twins they. If there are two eggs and two different sperm then they may may a case since they didn't pay for two fertilized eggs to be put back inside the mother. If it's a case of one zygote deviding they have no case at all. I'm kind of wondering why a lesbian would have IVF anyway. Wouldnt artificial isemination work just as well? If it was articifcial insemination they also have no case. They paid the doctor to pump her with alot of sperm and the case is mute. Very interesting case though. I'm interested in seeing how it pans out.

SusanofO -> RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins (9/23/2007 2:11:42 PM)
Just because she's a woman, doesn't mean she's fertile. Maybe she had IVF because she was having a hard time getting pregnant, and artificial insemination alone just wouldn't have gotten her there...IVF is very painstaking procedure, and carefully monitored, in terms of the fertilized blastocyst being (hopefully) successfully implanted in the uterus, and then also monitoring the embryo's (and fetus's) consequent growth. Personally, unless someone is a multi-millionaire (IVF can be very expensive) I have never understood what is wrong with just adopting a child, if someone wants to become a parent. I can't fathom someone being so hung up on a child having their own genes that they shell out hundreds of thousands of dollars to insure that. IVF can also fail numerous times, before it succeeds, at almost any point - and from what I've read, can be a pretty personally grueling experience for the parents, due to this. It just seems over-the top, to me, as an option to take, and more than a little arrogant, considering all of the currently living, parent-less UMs in the world already. But that's just me. But - maybe their IVF bills were really higher than they expected, or they have had a financial reversal (or something like that) and they've decided they need help with bills, and that's why they are suing the doctor. Guess I am just jaded enough to believe this is a distinct possibility. Not that it would be easy (maybe impossible) to prove, if that's the case anyway. In any case, I feel kinda sorry for their UMs. - Susan

ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins (9/23/2007 2:19:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO Just because she's a woman, doesn't mean she's fertile. Maybe she had IVF because she was having a hard time getting pregnant, and artificial insemination just wouldn't have gotten her there... - Susan Point taken.

FullCircle -> RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins (9/23/2007 2:38:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal I don't think two sperm can fertilize one egg but I could be wrong. You are probably right, I'm no expert on the subject and didn’t profess to be.

feastie -> RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins (9/23/2007 2:50:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal snip If there are two eggs and two different sperm then they may may a case since they didn't pay for two fertilized eggs to be put back inside the mother. If it's a case of one zygote deviding they have no case at all. As I pointed out in an earlier post, in IVF, several eggs are fertilized and several are placed inside the body for implantation. This is to increase the chances of having one live birth. Lots of times, however, multiple embryos are implanted and grow. Parents are given the option to reduce the number of embryos they will carry to term. From IVF.com Is there a possibility of multiple births with IVF? A: Yes, when multiple pre-embryos are transferred. 25%. of pregnancies with IVF are twins. (In normal population, the rate is one set of twins per 80 births.) Triplets are seen in approximately 2-3% of pregnancies. Q: What happens to any extra pre-embryos? A: A maximum of four pre-embryos will be transferred to the uterus for possible implantation. Patients will have several other options regarding the disposition of the remaining pre-embryos. One option is to freeze pre-embryos for your later use. Other options are to donate or simply dispose of them. Excess pre-embryos, if any, belong to you, and you will determine what is to be done.

ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins (9/23/2007 3:10:56 PM)
Solid facts. Thanks. There is no case.

SusanofO -> RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins (9/23/2007 3:15:10 PM)
Well I don't think there is a case at all, either. But isn't this happening in Australia? I don't know anything about how they do things there. Maybe it's different than here - but I can't imagine it's that much different. In any case, I hope they lose. - Susan

ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins (9/23/2007 3:18:50 PM)
True - but I think the procedure is the procedure where ever you go. If it were better and the odds were different I think it would be a different procedure. But what the hell do I know really? I'm not going to do the research to sort it out lol. I'll let the Australian courts do it. [:)]

SusanofO -> RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins (9/23/2007 3:26:47 PM)
You're right. I hope they lose. They appear to have no case - which makes me now wonder what kind of ethics their lawyer is operating under. Apparently, their lawyer has them believing they have a chance of winning - and I am truly wondering what the reason might be. Because it looks pretty bleak for their success in this case (to me), in terms of them almost certainly being advised by their doctor (or someone at the clinic anyway) that twins were a definite possibility, even if a remote one. - Susan

ChicagoSwitchMal -> RE: Lesbian couple sue over twins (9/23/2007 3:53:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO You're right. I hope they lose. They appear to have no case - which makes me now wonder what kind of ethics their lawyer is operating under. Apparently, their lawyer has them believing they have a chance of winning - and I am truly wondering what the reason might be. Because it looks pretty bleak for their success in this case (to me), in terms of them almost certainly being advised by their doctor (or someone at the clinic anyway) that twins were a definite possibility, even if a remote one. - Susan His pay may not be dependant on the award. He may very well know they will lose but, if they are paying him by the hour, may not care. They all might be hoping for a settlement and not want to go to court. It might be cheaper for the doc to pay them off than the cost of fighting it. Or he may pay them off to keep other things from like finacial records or tax info from being public. Who knows. It's all just BS to me.

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