RE: Insanity or Reality? (Full Version)

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UR2Badored -> RE: Insanity or Reality? (9/22/2007 4:00:52 PM)

One day I make a general statement like:

As surely as everyone has earwax, I'd swear my life on it.

Low and behold, three or more persons having a rare disease where they do not form earwax over hears this. 
Person 1 with disease:  Is highly angered by my audacity of my making such a statement and comments on it.
Person 2 with disease: Tries to patiently explain the error in my statement.
Person 3 with disease: Ignores my ignorance.
Person 4 without disease:  Debates for the hell of it.  Afterall, there must be someone out there that must be defended who has said affliction (though he/she doesnt know anyone personally) and must  point out my lack of political correctness. Perhaps comes up with a few internet links to prove his/her case after the fact. 
Person 5 without disease:  Has an earwax fetish and is afraid to admit it.
Person 6 without disease: ignores my ignorance
Person 7 without disease: uses statement as reminder to clean ears and reaches for a q-tip, cleans ear, and licks dirty q-tip.
Person: Me   My original statement was said as a hyperbole and in hindsight, I did not mean to intentionally harm persons with a disease or leave out the poor fetish guy.

Question:  Which perspective determines reality/insanity? 
For me, it shows each has a perspective and nothing else.




CuriousLord -> RE: Insanity or Reality? (9/22/2007 4:15:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored
Question:  What perspective shows reality/insanity?


You even have to ask?  It's clear.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored
Person 7 without disease: uses statement as reminder to clean ears and reaches for a q-tip, cleans ear, and licks dirty q-tip.


Dirty ear wax is nutrious and delicious at the same time.  No sane person would throwit away.




UR2Badored -> RE: Insanity or Reality? (9/22/2007 4:21:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored
Question:  What perspective shows reality/insanity?


You even have to ask?  It's clear.

Dirty ear wax is nutrious and delicious at the same time.  No sane person would throwit away.



exactly!




SusanofO -> RE: Insanity or Reality? (9/22/2007 4:56:18 PM)

I recently read an article in Scientific American that said that the most solid appearing of objects is still just a mass of loose atoms held together, and is mostly air, no matter what it might "look like" to most humans.

It appears solid based on the way human brains have been organized to perceive that solid object, so that they "see things" and not just a bunch of loose atoms floating around they can make no sense of -and that ability to perceive objects as solid (when they're really not) is an organziational tool and a gift. Without it, we'd go crazy (at least given the other ways in which our brains appear to be currently organized, we would). We could not navigate or make sense of the world we live in.

But even with all of that ability to perceive objects in particular ways -  perceptions are still individual, beyond even that. One person sees a rock, another sees a small stone, and another sees a statue that could be carved from the rock, etc, etc. - so until someone conclusively defines "reality" so they can truly make the definition apply equally to everyone - I dunno what to say, really.

Because I do think even though there are, objectively speaking, things we can all see - we still all perceive them slightly differently, even if we can agree on their main attributes: The rock is gray in color, is 5" across, etc. To some that's a "big" rock, to others a small stone, to others, it's "just another mineral". Well....you get the idea.

*I think the "reality" someone perceives is first based on their objective perception of the idea or object in question, but formed mostly with a lot of help from their personal prior experiences, and their own personal values.

**IMO -If you asked someone with no prior education at all, in any context, what they thought of the concepts of D/s Mastery and slavery - and just asked them to base their answer only on their own first-hand, first time experience, (with no pollution of their perception allowed to filter in at all - from their prior experience, their education via history books or religion, or comments from relatives, friends, and strangers in society at large) well - then you'd truly have something extraordinary, as far as a "fresh perception" of D/s or M/s.

However, IMO, their perception would still even then, be "biased, IMO. Even from the most objective, relatively "free of enculturational influences" person you could find. 

As things are, anyone's perceptions - anyone's - are going to be based on their past knoweldge of an idea or experiences with it (outside a D/s context and-or within it), and their other life experiences, plus their individual personality which filters all of their experiences, and their own personal value system (which allows them to place a value judgment on their experiences).

And, IMO this probably includes not only perceptions about objects like rocks, but also about ideas, like perceptions of M/s , D/s and the rest of BDSM activity.

IMO there really isn't such a thing as an "un-biased" person.

Some folks might consider themselves (or be regarded by others) as slightly more "objective" -BUT - I see no reason to consider "objectivity" a particularly laudable attribute, to the exclusion of some other attributes. IMO, "objectivity" can just as easily stifle things like creativity, as allow it to flower, given any particular context. 

Of course that last statement is based on my personal predjudices re: "Objective, scientific" types who like to think they can reduce topics like these to simple philosophical formulas - and then top it off by thinking doing this means they've got:
The one and only "answer" about "why things are". Hehe. I see no reason for this either. Why can't things just be fun  to think about? Who cares if someone's got "the answer" or not? Why can there not be more than one?

Are we attempting to stifle all creativity and future exploration? I don't understand, when discussing topics of this magnitude - which great thinkers have debated and explored for centuries, how anyone can believe they are gonna come up with "the one" answer that explains it all.

Maybe people come up with (or read elsewhere) an explanantion that satisifes themselves (for the time being) - which is fine. But hey - it's not like there probably aren't more (or other ones) out there. Or maybe some are just not going to ever know, until we die, what the real answers are, to some of these questions.   It's an interesting topic, and fun to think about. 

- Susan




Driver1961 -> RE: Insanity or Reality? (9/22/2007 5:16:42 PM)

He dips His lid:

I'll ponder everyone's ideas on reality as I weed my extensive garden, readying for outside enjoyment of study, relaxation and the third primary reality of 'play'.  Spring has arrived in Southern Australia!

"I'm just a lotus blossom gently floating down the meandering river of  life  negotiating the turbulent snags."

Warm regards to all. Driver




jaxnsax -> RE: Insanity or Reality? (9/22/2007 6:11:04 PM)


Greetings
While I would tentatively agree with some of what you said; I disagree with this statement:
“Perspective determines reality”
I think that an individuals perspective does NOT actually determine reality; but that it has the power to ‘influence’ your own reality.
(Since not too long ago I got into this same argument with another on this board; I am going to refrain from saying anything more seeing as how his words did cause me to rethink some things J and I have not yet fully reasoned them out in my own mind )
jaxon




MasterG333 -> RE: Insanity or Reality? (9/22/2007 6:23:08 PM)

In my humble opinion, reality is that which you perceive it to be.




torchure -> RE: Insanity or Reality? (9/22/2007 7:29:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit: To put it simply, my argument is that "Perspective determines reality".

This I partially agree with. As was written as I was typing my own response:
quote:

ORIGINAL: jaxnsax: I think that an individuals perspective does NOT actually determine reality; but that it has the power to ‘influence’ your own reality.

Reality is determined by the balance of all the forces working in a particular direction, all the forces working in the opposite direction, and all those forces working at some angle between the two extremes. I do not accept the theory that there is such a thing as an objective reality. It can neither be proven nor disproven. It is and always will be only a theory.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit: I think its just as hard for people who have developed a strong slave or Master mentality and a new perspective to remember this perspective doesn't add up in the rational mind.

See the problem is that "Rational" is simply a perspective. By stating it in this manner you are necessarily giving it a favored position. A position to which it holds no more right than any number of other perspectives that you and I may or may not accept as relevant to ourselves. Rationality, for all that is good about it, is really nothing more than another religiophilosophic perspective.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit: I think we see so much friction regarding this issue, because its a hard one to grasp. Its very difficult to see past your own perspective and your own reality and actuality and comprehend the reality created by another individual human mind.

I agree, but what causes that difference in perspective? This one in particular is a difficult one to grasp because society has spent so much time and energy in the socialization process establishing in us that the ownership of another human being is simply wrong. It is acceptable to own any other form of life - dogs, cats, plants, cows, etc - but ownership of humans? Nope. Never. So, even for some within this sub-community it is difficult because they haven't overcome that socialization. Maybe they never will. Maybe they don't want to. Nor should they be forced to. They should, however, accept the golden rule that it is the right of each individual to decide what is right for them and what is not.
(Skipping the sidetrack but can't resist pointing out that I hate the typical "Golden Rule" of do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you want to be sodomized with a telephone pole, for example, that's fine, but please don't try to do it to me. :)
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross: But simply to say that anyone who tries to actively deny another their own experience of themselves has a bit too much arrogance for my tastes and is trying way too hard to be "right" and caring way too much about how another chooses to live.

Simply, amen!
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord: Empirical observation suggests that the world is concrete, consistent, regardless of our perception, or even our lack of perception, of it.

Oh, really? There is much scientific evidence to contradict this. Simply observing a thing affects it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord: If those involved believe in them, they exist by definition.

Wait a second here. If "by definition" something, any thing, exists because of a belief in them, then doesn't this completely contradict everything else you said? Perhaps that is not what you meant, but it is what I understand you to have said.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin: It is only when we see ourselves as owned by the state, and not ourselves, that BDSM doesn't add up.

Agreed. I would only add that it is not limited to only when we see ourselves as owned by the state. It applies equally when we see ourselves as owned by any number of other creations, as well. God or gods, for example.
quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored: In the same respect, doesn't perspective also determine insanity?

Absolutely!
quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored: Who is more likely to contemplate insanity? the sane or the insane

Those that consider themselves sane, and likely are conforming to society's definition of sane, is most likely to contemplate the sanity or insanity of another. It has been said that if you think you are insane, you can't be. I think that's a dramatic oversimplification, but the sentiment has merit.
quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored: Does neutral and politically correct perspectives best determine reality or insanity? Or is that just another perspective?

Yes, it is just another perspective.
quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored: Isn't having tolerance for another's perspective also a mere perspective in how we choose to live in reality?

Yes. Yes, it is. One to which I personally try to adhere, but I recognize it for what it is. :) That doesn't mean though that I don't reserve the right to disagree with that other's perspective.
quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave: The question is interesting and it has to do with the extent of personal freedom. With insanity there is always a question who decides what behavior is insane. The criteria have changed historically.

Precisely. Today if you hear god speaking to you, you're either crazy or a televangelist.
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO: Of course that last statement is based on my personal prejudices re: "Objective, scientific" types who like to think they can reduce topics like these to simple philosophical formulas - and then top it off by thinking doing this means they've got: The one and only "answer" about "why things are". Hehe. I see no reason for this either. Why can't things just be fun to think about? Who cares if someone's got "the answer" or not? Why can there not be more than one?

This whole post was wonderful. Only a snippet for brevity since my own has already gotten very long. There is always more than one answer to every question. Far too often, the question asked of the answer is, "Is that right?" when a much better question would be, "Is that right for me?"

The relatively non-biased person you describe is a researcher's wet dream. How else to answer all the nature versus nurture questions? From the time we are able to communicate with anyone, aside from their interpretation of our cries, moans and movements, we are polluted. From very small ways at the beginning to the many and massive ways in which we are shaped throughout our lives. The only people who aren't are sociopaths. Anyone else who says they don't care what others think is a liar. They may be lying to themselves as well, but they're still lying. If they were telling the truth, a) they wouldn't need to say it and b) they wouldn't be involved in the conversation.

- Torch




RRafe -> RE: Insanity or Reality? (9/22/2007 7:33:15 PM)

Fast reply........

Your perception is your reality? I DO hope none of you with that quant notion decide that you are an eagle-and are going to loft from the tenth floor. The reality will have quite an impact.




CuriousLord -> RE: Insanity or Reality? (9/22/2007 7:34:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: torchure
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord: Empirical observation suggests that the world is concrete, consistent, regardless of our perception, or even our lack of perception, of it.

Oh, really? There is much scientific evidence to contradict this. Simply observing a thing affects it.


..Heisenburg is turning in his grave at how many people misunderstand his theories.  In any case, I assure you, you're mistaken.

quote:

ORIGINAL: torchure
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord: If those involved believe in them, they exist by definition.

Wait a second here. If "by definition" something, any thing, exists because of a belief in them, then doesn't this completely contradict everything else you said? Perhaps that is not what you meant, but it is what I understand you to have said.


A belief exists when it's believed in.

PS-  Blah, I guess I better explain.

Say, a man believes he can fly.  This man can't actually fly; so his belief doesn't make it so.  At the same time, the belief that he can fly does exist, even if it's a belief in a falsehood.  If partners in an M/s relationship believe the dynamic exists, acting upon it, then it does, by the instance of definition (adopting the M/s construct as a belief).




torchure -> RE: Insanity or Reality? (9/22/2007 7:41:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
..Heisenburg is turning in his grave at how many people misunderstand his theories.  In any case, I assure you, you're mistaken.


Actually, I wasn't referring to the often misunderstood Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Nice try though.

Your assurance that I'm mistaken, while perhaps meant to be taken with some value, means nothing to me. A thought or two might help give it some credence though.




CuriousLord -> RE: Insanity or Reality? (9/22/2007 8:29:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: torchure


quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
..Heisenburg is turning in his grave at how many people misunderstand his theories.  In any case, I assure you, you're mistaken.


Actually, I wasn't referring to the often misunderstood Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Nice try though.

Your assurance that I'm mistaken, while perhaps meant to be taken with some value, means nothing to me. A thought or two might help give it some credence though.


I see.  Well then, if you will spare me the guessing game.. exactly what "much scientific evidence to contradict this" is there?




Kirata -> RE: Insanity or Reality? (9/22/2007 9:02:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

The question of whether God exists or not is somewhat mute, because he does in fact exist for certain individuals. Their own individual faith and belief gives him life and power.


Wow, think of the possibilities!
 
K.
 




RRafe -> RE: Insanity or Reality? (9/22/2007 9:08:53 PM)

Well, one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over-and expecting different results. I think some of us qualify under those terms.




Kirata -> RE: Insanity or Reality? (9/22/2007 9:12:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

Well, one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over-and expecting different results. I think some of us qualify under those terms.



Actually, that's a neurosis. Heh.
 
K.
 




CuriousLord -> RE: Insanity or Reality? (9/22/2007 9:13:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

Well, one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over-and expecting different results. I think some of us qualify under those terms.


That was a quote from Einstein justifying science as the source of sane thought.

PS-  This is something I wish I could inscribe upon a hammer and beat people with until they understand it.  Of course, if they don't come any closer to understanding with the first thwack, I suppose I'd be a hypocrit to say that they'd be any more likely on the subsequent thwacks; nonetheless, it would be theraputic.




RRafe -> RE: Insanity or Reality? (9/22/2007 9:20:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

Well, one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over-and expecting different results. I think some of us qualify under those terms.


That was a quote from Einstein justifying science as the source of sane thought.

PS-  This is something I wish I could inscribe upon a hammer and beat people with until they understand it.  Of course, if they don't come any closer to understanding with the first thwack, I suppose I'd be a hypocrit to say that they'd be any more likely on the subsequent thwacks; nonetheless, it would be theraputic.


I think you mean "satisfying"




CuriousLord -> RE: Insanity or Reality? (9/22/2007 9:26:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

I think you mean "satisfying"


I'm afraid that, in my case, it would be quite a bit of both.




NControlofU -> RE: Insanity or Reality? (9/22/2007 10:32:44 PM)

My reality might be insanity but the blow jobs I get from my slave make it all worth it.  If we're insane just because we function best by me being in charge of her and her doing everything I tell her to do and because we call each other by our own particular pet names of Master and slave, then so be it.  We enjoy our insaity just fine.

It matters not whether anyone else thinks we are insane or play acting or living in lala land.  We live our lives the way we choose regardless of what anyone thinks about it.

We make our own rules for how we live as a couple.  We are a private, members only club and we decide who gets in and how we conduct ourselves within our little club.  It doesnt matter what the law says.  Within our little club, we decide what is right and what is wrong, what's allowed and what's required of our members. 

Just because something can't be seen or touched doesn't make it unreal.  There are many things that I can't touch or see or lay out on a table for others to look at and touch but they are very real.  I cant see or touch love, pain, sadnes, happiness, or many other feelings but they are very real.  I feel them.  Thats good enough for me.  I see the effects these things have on me and on other people.  I see smiles, tears, cringing, doubling over, and hear them laugh and cry.  This shows me these things are real.  God doesnt stand in front of me and say come on over and touch me but I feel him and see the effects of his being.  I have fealt the presence of God within me at times when I least expected it.  One time in particular was when I was a young soldier in an ugly war, which all wars are.  I was armed with a loaded M16 and a 45 and sitting at the back of a deuce and a half truck going through a Vietnamese village.  In an instant I drew my 45, cocked and ready to kill, at the sound of a loud bang.  What stopped me from firing when I was all set to, with my finger on the trigger, was nothing less than God himself and I know that because there was nothing else to stop me from shooting.  What I nearly killed was a 10 year old boy who was trying to steal my new radio out of the truck and the loud bang was him hitting that radio against the tailgate.  There have been other times when I had no doubt that God was with me or with someone very close to me.  I've seen him bring peace to someone dying right in front of me.  I also see the presence of God in the beauty of nature and it makes no difference to me if no one else sees it.  Call it my perspective.  I call it my beliefs and they're real.

Insanity or reality or both.  I live a good life that works for me and I dont ask anyone to accept its validity.  If I and my slave are the only ones who give any credence to how we live, thats good enough for me.




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