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Insanity or Reality? - 9/22/2007 9:45:11 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
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Status: offline 		Time and time again, I hear viewpoints on these boards regarding why M/S relationships are not "real" or are merely "fantasy" or are people simply "playing roles".

This topic is always a hot button issue where viewpoints and opinions conflict and clash in diametric opposition to each other and incomprehension gives rise to heated debate.

Regardless, I have decided to be a little bold, pressing forward to offer my viewpoint as to why I consider this to be untrue and somewhat narrow-minded in the hopes of some intellectual discourse.

To put it simply, my argument is that "Perspective determines reality".

Or as J.G Fichte theorized, the productive power of the human imagination is the source of our concept of the external world.

M/S relationships, to me at least, are primarily an exploration into the realm of human mentality (for some, an exploration into the spiritual). They are real, because the human mind makes them real.

"I am her Owner, she is my property. She cannot say "No" to me. She is mine to do with as I please."

"I am his slave, he is my Owner. I cannot say "No" to him. I must obey and do as he says."

In a purely rational sense, these concepts are not enforced by any particular legal law. In a pragmatic and logical sense, she can disobey, she is not his property, he has no right to do with her as he pleases. These are all very good arguments.

However, they are very much real in a sense that the two individuals minds and their willingness to believe in them make them real.

In a sense, concepts such as "good", "evil", "righteousness", and "laws" aren't real in an objective sense. I cant reach out and touch "good" like I can reach out and touch this coffee cup on my desk. They are ideas created in the human mind and threw people's willingness to believe them, they become real.

Its my opinion, that human laws only exist because the collective minds of human beings recognize them as laws, respect them, and follow them. If no one believed in a "law" or followed it or enforced it, then the law simply wont exist.

Another good example (and one where that is quite controversial) is God and religion. In a purely logical and rational sense, the idea of people living lives in fear of an imaginary deity that they cannot see or touch is purely ludicrous, but yet people still do and its something that can rarely ever be argued. The question of whether God exists or not is somewhat mute, because he does in fact exist for certain individuals. Their own individual faith and belief gives him life and power. He exists and is real because the individual perspective makes him real.

Who knows? Maybe one day I will wake up in a tub of pink good with hoses and implants attached to my body and find out my coffee cup was merely a computer generated simulation created by autonomous computers as a way to enslave human beings.

So I consider, M/S to be a reality for people because the human mind takes a possibility and makes it an actuality.

I think we see so much friction regarding this issue, because its a hard one to grasp. Its very difficult to see past your own perspective and your own reality and actuality and comprehend the reality created by another individual human mind.

I think its just as hard for people who have developed a strong slave or Master mentality and a new perspective to remember this perspective doesn't add up in the rational mind.

Any thoughts on this thesis are welcome.

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RE: Insanity or Reality? - 9/22/2007 10:09:49 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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I won't get into all the subtleties of the perception/reality issue because that's just one complicated knot leading into another complicated knot and then you add in all the knots regarding free will and choice and determinism and well- not what I want to spend my Saturday morning doing.

But simply to say that anyone who tries to actively deny another their own experience of themselves has a bit too much arrogance for my tastes and is trying way too hard to be "right" and caring way too much about how another chooses to live.

The best part is when those same people get pissed when ANOTHER person tries to tell THEM how wrong THEY are about THEIR lives.



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RE: Insanity or Reality? - 9/22/2007 10:40:35 AM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

moot not mute


Thanks, mom. (I am being sincere. Never knew that)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
The best part is when those same people get pissed when ANOTHER person tries to tell THEM how wrong THEY are about THEIR lives.



In some cases, I would like to admit that I am one of those people, not because I dont recognize their perspective as valid, but because I think its important in some of these dicussions to seperate the mentality of one individual from rational thinking..

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RE: Insanity or Reality? - 9/22/2007 10:50:52 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		Relationships are as "real" or as "fake" as we wish them to be.

I have known many M/s relationships that seemed to my eye quite real.

I have known many vanilla marriages that seemed to my eye quite fake.

In the end, who can say which is real and which is fake, save the people within the relationship itself?


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RE: Insanity or Reality? - 9/22/2007 11:05:21 AM   
gypsygrl


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From: new york state
Status: offline 		Yup.  And there' the glories of German Idealism.

When I first started this stuff, I commented to a good friend that I felt like I was selling out on a generation of feminists.  He replied, "Nah.  You're just paying you're debt to Hegel."


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RE: Insanity or Reality? - 9/22/2007 11:09:30 AM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

He replied, "Nah.  You're just paying you're debt to Hegel."



LOL.

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RE: Insanity or Reality? - 9/22/2007 11:19:43 AM   
teamnoir


Posts: 226
Joined: 4/5/2005
From: San Francisco Bay Area California
Status: offline 		Two points. But first, I'm all about the reality of belief, believe me. :).

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

In a purely rational sense, these concepts are not enforced by any particular legal law. In a pragmatic and logical sense, she can disobey, she is not his property, he has no right to do with her as he pleases. These are all very good arguments.

However, they are very much real in a sense that the two individuals minds and their willingness to believe in them make them real.


Yes. And the word for this confluence of events is either "pretend" or "role playing". The fact that their reality is significantly different from the reality of most other observers makes their reality "less real" by consensus.

My second point is that M/s often compares itself to real world slavery. The distinctions between the two are many and quite clear. This differs radically from most of the other belief based or social constructs that you've described.

Take the social fabrication of "ownership". This is really just a social concept that we use in order to get along better with each other. Ownership exists only because we all agree that it exists. There is no other form of ownership against which to compare it. And in the case of M/s, there isn't even a social consensus that such ownership of a person exists.

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RE: Insanity or Reality? - 9/22/2007 11:32:58 AM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL:  MadRabbit
To put it simply, my argument is that "Perspective determines reality".


Fallacy, simply put.

Prospective and belief do not determine reality; simply the perception of reality.  Believing that are you are capable of flight does not cause you to fly.  Should you believe, regardless, that it causes you to fly, and you attempt by jumping off a short cliff, you might be surprised when your "flying" causes your ass to be rather sore.  Should it cause you to jump off a high cliff, there probably won't be much of anything.

Empiracle observation suggests that the world is concrete, consistent, regardless of our perception, or even our lack of perception, of it.  How we see it, what we believe it to be, what we hope it to be, etc., are all entirely irrelevant to the world, outside of the effects that we personally have on it.  (Such as, if you believe you can fly, and jump off a cliff- that belief has had an effect on the world.  A splattered corpse, this is; not flight.)

Master/slave roles can be mental constructs; they are beliefs, should they be taken as such.  If those involved believe in them, they exist by definition.  This belief can affect the way that such hosts act.

So, yes.  A belief exists if it's believed in.  A Master/slave role set exists, as a belief, so long as it's believed in.  It's also destroyed when its hosts cease to believe in it.

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RE: Insanity or Reality? - 9/22/2007 11:43:18 AM   
Bobkgin


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From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

So I consider, M/S to be a reality for people because the human mind takes a possibility and makes it an actuality.

I think we see so much friction regarding this issue, because its a hard one to grasp. Its very difficult to see past your own perspective and your own reality and actuality and comprehend the reality created by another individual human mind.

I think its just as hard for people who have developed a strong slave or Master mentality and a new perspective to remember this perspective doesn't add up in the rational mind.

Any thoughts on this thesis are welcome.


I don't find it difficult to keep in mind that the M/s "mentality" doesn't add up for the Vanilla mind. I disagree that it doesn't add up for the "rational" mind.

If you start from the premise that we own ourselves, and are free to do with ourselves what we please, there is nothing in consensual BDSM that cannot be anticipated, including those who consider themselves property, and those who consider themselves as owners of said property.

It is only when we see ourselves as owned by the state, and not ourselves, that BDSM doesn't add up.

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RE: Insanity or Reality? - 9/22/2007 11:51:39 AM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		Personal and/or social set of norms and expectations are created by interactive
behaviors and beliefs between the persons involved.

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RE: Insanity or Reality? - 9/22/2007 12:00:30 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

So I consider, M/S to be a reality for people because the human mind takes a possibility and makes it an actuality.

I think we see so much friction regarding this issue, because its a hard one to grasp. Its very difficult to see past your own perspective and your own reality and actuality and comprehend the reality created by another individual human mind.

I think its just as hard for people who have developed a strong slave or Master mentality and a new perspective to remember this perspective doesn't add up in the rational mind.

Any thoughts on this thesis are welcome.


I don't find it difficult to keep in mind that the M/s "mentality" doesn't add up for the Vanilla mind. I disagree that it doesn't add up for the "rational" mind.

If you start from the premise that we own ourselves, and are free to do with ourselves what we please, there is nothing in consensual BDSM that cannot be anticipated, including those who consider themselves property, and those who consider themselves as owners of said property.

It is only when we see ourselves as owned by the state, and not ourselves, that BDSM doesn't add up.


I would argue, but we are essentially in agreement with only a semantical difference.

I think its important to keep one foot firmly in the Vanilla world or the reality created by society. This is why I have that quote from Bertrand Russell.

As being dependant on society to some varying degree, you cant forget the limitations imposed by it.

I consider this to be rational thinking and irrational thinking to not recognize that society has a bearing on our actions and life.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 9/22/2007 12:11:27 PM >

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RE: Insanity or Reality? - 9/22/2007 12:03:04 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: teamnoir

Two points. But first, I'm all about the reality of belief, believe me. :).

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

In a purely rational sense, these concepts are not enforced by any particular legal law. In a pragmatic and logical sense, she can disobey, she is not his property, he has no right to do with her as he pleases. These are all very good arguments.

However, they are very much real in a sense that the two individuals minds and their willingness to believe in them make them real.


Yes. And the word for this confluence of events is either "pretend" or "role playing". The fact that their reality is significantly different from the reality of most other observers makes their reality "less real" by consensus.

My second point is that M/s often compares itself to real world slavery. The distinctions between the two are many and quite clear. This differs radically from most of the other belief based or social constructs that you've described.

Take the social fabrication of "ownership". This is really just a social concept that we use in order to get along better with each other. Ownership exists only because we all agree that it exists. There is no other form of ownership against which to compare it. And in the case of M/s, there isn't even a social consensus that such ownership of a person exists.


Fair enough. I agree with you if we view the issue using society as the lens and not the individual.

My viewpoint was purely in an individual existential sense.

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RE: Insanity or Reality? - 9/22/2007 1:33:02 PM   
UR2Badored


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

To put it simply, my argument is that "Perspective determines reality".

Any thoughts on this [argument] are welcome.

~FR  I was too lazy to read anything on this thread but that statement caught my eye....I am probably taking it entirely out of context but I have a perspective on that statement all the same.  Thus, faulty in reality or my perspective, or is it?  I would say yes it is faulty as I am missing a piece of reality......but who am I or anyone to say I am one piece short of a puzzle?

In the same respect, doesn't  perspective also determine insanity?
If so, this would pretty much leave us at square one.
Or should I not have a perspective on insanity at all?
Who is more likely to contemplate insanity? the sane or the insane 
Or are we not allowed to have any perspective on that unless we are neither sane or insane?
Does neutral and politically correct perspectives best determine reality or insanity?  Or is that just another perspective?
Isnt having tolerance for another's perspective also a mere perspective in how we choose to live in reality?


Okay, I would be first to admit that I am one piece short of a puzzle--contradictions are the spice of life.

< Message edited by UR2Badored -- 9/22/2007 2:19:41 PM >

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RE: Insanity or Reality? - 9/22/2007 1:34:30 PM   
awmslave


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Status: offline 		    The question is interesting and it has to do with the extent of personal freedom. With insanity there is always a question who decides what behavior is insane. The criteria have changed historically.
   To a certain extent we all are part of "matrix" (thinking of popular movie analogy and society at large). BDSM community is practicing certain reality. It is up to an individual to what extent they engage into the BDSM lifestyle.  There is a similarity with church group: one may be integral part of it  ("true belever") or visit it on occasions for entertainment (or whatever) purposes. For example worsipping some wooden statue and believing the World will end 2012 can be quite accepted socially (even protected) without any consequences if someone preaches it openly.
   I believe for lasting BDSM relationship just pretending is not enough: there must be strong submissive and dominant character traits present. There are of course things that have weak connection to the lifestyle (sometimes confused with)  like "kinky sex" and professional domination.
  In summary,  i think, it is about personal freedom and the extent an individual has matured to be able to exercise it without guilt of non-conformity.

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RE: Insanity or Reality? - 9/22/2007 2:04:16 PM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline 		We all have things we like. Most of the argument comes when you try to take it beyind individual relationships. For instance, I just like kinky sex. A lot of what I do in play might look like heavy Domination to people who prefer D/s. But I don't do that-the moment a scene is over, I shut it off.

You see, I have nothing to prove, and I could really give a rat's ass over what the rest of you do. Tell me something like "You aren't a Dom!!!" I'll just nod my head, (and probably wonder why you are so hung up on your "universal truth") and maybe snicker to myself a bit.

You see, I only have to relate to one other person with what I do.  I'm not fucking the rest of you-what you think doesn't matter.

Could this possibly be any easier to understand?

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RE: Insanity or Reality? - 9/22/2007 2:45:27 PM   
velvetears


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Status: offline 		FR

Perception, reality and belief.  Interesting concepts when contemplating the M/s dynamic. 

Perceptions are observations that are limited by what the human mind can comprehend and see. One looks out over an ocean and sees the land disappearing in the horizon. The perception could be (and was at one time) that the world is flat.  The reality is the world is round.  i am sure that when it was first discovered that the world was round many adhered to their own perceptions of it bing flat, thinking the others who said it was round were nuts.  No amount belief would ever change that reality. 

A woman decides she wants to be a slave. First she has to have some sort of starting point for this desire and belief that it is even possible for a woman to become a slave - was she raised in an M/s dynamic? Was she abused all her life and having a man to "control her"  fit what life has taught her is her reality?  Is it an internal yearning that she can remember having all her life, only to realize and actualize it when she became and adult and learned about M/s dynamics between consenting individuals?  Did she see it portrayed in a movie or online and thought it would be "cool" to identify with something she thought would gain her attention by being edgy? The possibilities are endless. 

Eventually she will find a Master and create a world with him where she can create her own "reality" and actualize her beliefs about what it is to be a slave.  In other words she can go on about living life as she understands a slave should.  This will be wholly dependant on what she believes a slave is (endless debates abounded here around this topic). She can believe that she gives total control and absolute power to her Master.  Her belief can be anything she wants it to be, they can come from any recess of her mind, any outside influence, but it doesn't necessarily make it reality.  She will only actualize the reality of her slavery when faced with actually doing or accomplishing the things she believs she can as a slave.  The need to believe this is already a reality is probably genuine but coming to terms with the actual reality of what's actually entailed when confronted with specific challenges might just shift her perceptions when she is told (you fill in the blank). 

Faith and belief is what gives the relationship its power.  Reality is what restricts it. 

i agree with this statement MadRabbit made (in italics below) and will add that there should be no imposition to either.  If it is incomprehensible to someone, that is what it is to them.  i don't feel any need to accept everyone elses beliefs as possible or real, if i think they are offensive, immoral, wrong, lies etc than they are to me.  i don't have to pretend to think otherwise. i don't have to go about making them change their own beliefs or "saving them".  i also don't have to tolerate them and when they do cross that line in the sand (don't want to go against TOS) i don't think speaking out is a bad thing.

I think we see so much friction regarding this issue, because its a hard one to grasp. Its very difficult to see past your own perspective and your own reality and actuality and comprehend the reality created by another individual human mind.

< Message edited by velvetears -- 9/22/2007 3:44:26 PM >

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RE: Insanity or Reality? - 9/22/2007 2:58:07 PM   
UR2Badored


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

FR

I think we see so much friction regarding this issue, because its a hard one to grasp. Its very difficult to see past your own perspective and your own reality and actuality and comprehend the reality created by another individual human mind.

Well said! 

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RE: Insanity or Reality? - 9/22/2007 3:43:12 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

FR

I think we see so much friction regarding this issue, because its a hard one to grasp. Its very difficult to see past your own perspective and your own reality and actuality and comprehend the reality created by another individual human mind.

Well said! 


That was a qoute i took from what MR said - i put it in italics but i forgot to mention his name actually. Had i been able to correct it i would have but i think CM went down right after i posted and i could not get back in till it was too late to edit.

[edited to add]

i fixed the previous post. It hadn't timed out after all :-)


< Message edited by velvetears -- 9/22/2007 3:45:19 PM >

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RE: Insanity or Reality? - 9/22/2007 3:46:15 PM   
UR2Badored


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Status: offline 		I still like what you had to say anyway, so nanny!

< Message edited by UR2Badored -- 9/22/2007 3:47:53 PM >

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RE: Insanity or Reality? - 9/22/2007 3:59:54 PM   
velvetears


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Status: offline 		Thanks 

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