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Passing the Buck - 9/21/2007 2:37:36 PM

norarc

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Joined: 8/21/2007
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Okay, this story just kind of burns me for some reason. I figure most everyone in the U.S. has had more than enough of the "illegal immigrant" debate; as a Canadian, I've just been watching from the sidelines -- ignoring it, really, as I figured it wasn't really any of my business. Well, it looks like it's getting to be now. What a wretched thing to do -- tricking immigrants flooding into Florida into thinking that a little paperwork and yelling "refugee!" will get them a carte-blanche free-ride pass into Canada? Talk about fobbing off your problems! I'm right with the people facing this problem in Windsor and elsewhere in expressing outrage at the underhanded individuals who are encouraging this type of scheme. They're not only taking advantage of people's hope for a better life, but they're literally exporting the problem. To us. Gee, thanks, Uncle Sam.

Norarc
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< Message edited by norarc -- 9/21/2007 3:07:48 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Passing the Buck - 9/21/2007 3:03:48 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
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Bad link, has popups. And then it gives you the page momentarily and then changes to "page cannot be found", and I don't mean on your PC, I mean on their website.

In case you didn't know, there is a plan afoot, with Bush included, to build a mile wide highway all the way from Mexico to Canada. They are also working to form a union something like the EU which melds our laws together and basically costs us our sovereignty. The Mexicans will be everywhere because they have it the worst. You may see some fugitives from the US up there as well.

Of course reciprocity and extradition will be very efficient, but the law will be, as it always has, selectively enforced. This is a power grab like any other.

About five years ago Robert McDougall published "An Open Letter To America" which pretty much explains why Canadians are not quite as friendly to US citizens as we might think they would be. If you can't find it, I will for you. The guy makes some good points. This was five years and a few months ago, and subsequent events seem to have proven him right.

Buddy, when that highway comes, you won't have to learn French to go to Quebec, you'll need to learn Spanish. This union is going to reestablish everything, immigration will be just about automatic, like moving state to state or province to province. They want to do this quickly, or at least setup the framework because all three governments are filled with the same kind of people, "them". Yes, the Canadian government is in on it as well, and at the highest levels.

Think of a mile wide freeway. I can see the thing would not be a mile wide the whole way, lanes would split off, like tentacles into all three countries.

And when these people want something, it usually happens. Even electing Ron Paul, in eight years, YEEHAAA ! The only thing we can hope for is that they fuck it up so much that it takes longer to complete than we have left on this Earth.

It has already happened that a US citizen was sent to Mexico for doing something that is not illegal here. Another was jailed for something done in another country. They are in control, and they want more. This is their path, our loss of sovereignty.

Where's that buck ?

T

(in reply to norarc)

Post #: 2

RE: Passing the Buck - 9/21/2007 3:06:56 PM

camille65

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From: Austin Texas
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The site was fine for me. NYTIMES.com is a member site so that could be the problem you ran into Termyn8or.

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RE: Passing the Buck - 9/21/2007 3:10:57 PM

norarc

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Sorry about the popups, if you have any -- I have Adblocker, so I tend not to be pestered by such things.

Norarc
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(in reply to camille65)

Post #: 4

RE: Passing the Buck - 9/21/2007 5:45:09 PM

luckydog1

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The site opened just fine for me. I do not see what the problem is though. And why are you calling a Haitian refugee "Uncle Sam". I have often wondered what Canada would do if they had poor uneducated refugees pouring in, instead of the educated Chinese. Change your laws if you do not like it.

(in reply to norarc)

Post #: 5

RE: Passing the Buck - 9/21/2007 6:42:00 PM

norarc

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I don't object to taking in refugees -- that isn't the issue. I do object to people essentially telling these individuals "go to Canada with this little questionnaire, they'll take care of you" because... well, why? Why are these people being sent north? Is there something preventing the United States from assisting them? I wouldn't mind taking them in -- as you said, there have been quite a number of immigrants of Chinese extraction coming here in recent years, and a number of them are not "educated Chinese," but travel here via cramped cargo containers in a bid for a better life. No problem, it's only right to give them a helping hand. But essentially lying to people in an attempt, if I see it correctly, to "pass them on" to another country, thereby avoiding the problem, smacks not only of disingenuousness but flat bigotry. Whatever happened to "give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free"?

Norarc
Apudne te vel me?

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 6

RE: Passing the Buck - 9/21/2007 7:25:39 PM

Pulpsmack

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Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: norarc
Is there something preventing the United States from assisting them?

Yes, ME and many other constituents who object in the strongest possible terms for the tacit acceptance of this invasion of criminal invaders who slap the face of every immigrant who has gone through hell and back to make it in this country the hard, proper, and legal way.

quote:

I wouldn't mind taking them in -- as you said, there have been quite a number of immigrants of Chinese extraction coming here in recent years, and a number of them are not "educated Chinese," but travel here via cramped cargo containers in a bid for a better life. No problem, it's only right to give them a helping hand.

Outstanding. They're all yours. Problem solved.

quote:

But essentially lying to people in an attempt, if I see it correctly, to "pass them on" to another country, thereby avoiding the problem, smacks not only of disingenuousness but flat bigotry. Whatever happened to "give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free"?

I think that foisting them on the shoulders of others may be criticized and labled a lot of unpleasant things, but "flat bigotry" is not one of them under those facts. It is no more bigoted than complaining about it here. Do you not want them in your country? I wouldn't blame you. Not because they come from a certain place, or because they are a certain ethnicity, but because they have little to offer the society other than unskilled labor and a host of socio-economic problems. As for Emma's poem on that statue, I am all for tearing it down and tossing it into the Atlantic. If that's a little harsh on your eyes I offer a fitting replacement:
.
Give me those hired with "more",
versed in math'matics, learning this country!
This wretching refuse raped this land, their whore...
Send these, the lawless, dollar-drunk to me,
I lift my rifle and heap high hell's floor!

- Pulpsmack 2007

< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 9/21/2007 7:33:59 PM >

(in reply to norarc)

Post #: 7

RE: Passing the Buck - 9/21/2007 7:41:19 PM

norarc

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Status: offline

Well, therein lies the question -- if you're terribly upset over being swamped by illegal immigrants, should I not be just slightly miffed at having said illegal immigrants bussed up to the U.S.-Canada border and essentially dumped in our laps? If illegal immigration is wrong and criminal, is it not also wrong to export the problem to an uninvolved nation and force that nation to wrestle with questions of morality and legality and responsibility and security (i.e. do we take these people in, or deport them, or imprison them, or what?) while others wash their hands of the issue?

You do, perhaps, have a point about the bigotry comment, though -- I suppose I was being unclear, and for that I apologize. Mostly my objections stem from the idea of the U.S. passing the problem on to Canada (well, perhaps not the U.S. government or the vast majority of its citizens, but those private concerns who are encouraging this behaviour) and of the deceitful tactics used to convince these immigrants to head for the northern border.

Norarc
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(in reply to Pulpsmack)

Post #: 8

RE: Passing the Buck - 9/21/2007 7:47:44 PM

Pulpsmack

Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline

No, I have no problem with your criticism or your aversion to having these problems in your country. You and I have at least one thing in common... we both sharply criticize the way this government is handling the situation. My solution is very simple... 100% voluntary border patrol (no wage, no $ provided for equipment) that is empowered to kill anybody who steps over the border and is required to videotape their watch and any encounters with each shift..

(in reply to norarc)

Post #: 9

RE: Passing the Buck - 9/21/2007 9:45:13 PM

Sinergy

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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

No, I have no problem with your criticism or your aversion to having these problems in your country. You and I have at least one thing in common... we both sharply criticize the way this government is handling the situation. My solution is very simple... 100% voluntary border patrol (no wage, no $ provided for equipment) that is empowered to kill anybody who steps over the border and is required to videotape their watch and any encounters with each shift..

[sarcasm]

Well, the government empowers our military and various companies to kill anybody that moves in Iraq, so I can see the precedent allowing people to use deadly force on other human beings without any sort of judicial
review or adherence to the principles this country was founded on.

[/sarcasm]

Sinergy

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(in reply to Pulpsmack)

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RE: Passing the Buck - 9/21/2007 9:48:56 PM

luckydog1

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Joined: 1/16/2006
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Hey they want free medical care. They are not being sent North, they are being told what a paradise Canada is, and that it is very easy to get permission to stay. So they go. Why exactly are you blaming the USA for this?

< Message edited by luckydog1 -- 9/21/2007 9:50:34 PM >

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 11

RE: Passing the Buck - 9/22/2007 1:27:06 AM

norarc

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I'm annoyed with this tactic because it's essentially a lie -- yes, Canada has medical care and such, but it's hardly a utopia, and the processes governing immigration here are apparently quite long and arduous, or so a few American friends who have looked into immigrating here have informed me. The idea that an illegal immigrant in Florida could be given one very simple form (which is already filled out for them, be it noted), and sent on their merry way with the expectation that they'll find the Land of Milk and Honey north of the border is, to put it bluntly, a lie. Yes, I would imagine some will qualify for refugee status, but the rest are going to be out of luck, and to give them false hope while simultaneous exporting one's own border security problems elsewhere, well, it just seems wrong.

Norarc
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(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 12

RE: Passing the Buck - 9/22/2007 2:17:19 AM

luckydog1

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Norac, but we are not exporting anything. They found out about your welfare state. A Haitian refugee started a company helping them with the paperwork. Canada is one of the easiest nations to get refugee status in with the best benefits right off the bat.

"“Maybe they’ll have compassion for us,” Manuel Gonzalez, 46, said of his request for asylum. “All we want to do is live and follow the rules and work hard.” Referring to the help Canadian authorities have already given them, Mr. Gonzalez, who traveled from Naples, said, “What we didn’t have in the United States we had here in a second.”"

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Post #: 13

RE: Passing the Buck - 9/22/2007 2:26:27 AM

norarc

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Joined: 8/21/2007
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Umm... no. Not really. Here, this news article might clarify my position somewhat. At least it hope it does.

Norarc
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(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 14

RE: Passing the Buck - 9/22/2007 2:47:34 AM

luckydog1

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Your position seems to be blaming the US for your own issue. They are given full welfare from the time they set foot in Canada. They get up to 2 years of free benefits while thier claims are processed. I would imagine within a year you will have legions of refugees from Mexico with health problems showing up. They have a baby while waiting, it becomes a Canadian citizen, and the parents get to stay. The only surprise here is that it didn't start long ago.

I did notice the second article you posted blames Bushes crackdown for the problem. That might sell papers in Canada, But...Bushes Immigration plan was shot down, the congress passed it. and the CBC article says it has been growing constantly for several years, and Mexico has been the largest immigration bloc to Canada since 05.

Why do you for some reason think they are "America's" to export? They are people fleeing looking for new homes. Canada is doing great these days, of course migrants are going to come, and take advantage of your welfare state. Once they figure out the cold isn't so bad they will really start coming, like they did in Alaska

(in reply to norarc)

Post #: 15

RE: Passing the Buck - 9/22/2007 3:37:18 AM

norarc

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I do agree with your statement about "Bush's crackdown," as it's hardly his idea. And I'm not debating how they are treated once they get here, I'm simply objecting to organizations in the U.S. "passing them along" essentially. If they would like to come here on their own steam, through proper channels (as refugees or otherwise), that's their business, all well and good, but it seems to me that if an organization in Canada decided that this country couldn't deal with a sudden influx of immigrants from somewhere, and started putting such individuals on buses headed for the States with "application papers" that were essentially completely worthless, well, there would probably be some diplomatic fireworks in that instance. Honestly, I'm not angry about how they're being treated -- given due process, having their applications carefully reviewed, any children born here are Canadian (as they would be, by default, American if they are born in Florida or elsewhere), and the rest -- that's just human rights, there -- but if the United States, or more precisely, the organizations that are condoning and perpetuating these actions don't want to deal with these people, is it not an evasion of responsibility to send them here, rather than reviewing refugee applications in the States, or (if no accommodation can be reached with the immigrants) deporting them back to their countries of origin? I guess I object to sloughing off that decision and forcing another country to determine the fate of these individuals, with all the questions of morality inherent in such decisions (do we send them back to desperate poverty or give them a shot here despite their less-than-legal status?). Now, it bears repeating that this is not the policy of the U.S. as a whole, but rather a small group of private concerns who are essentially operating a scam to ship illegal immigrants north, where the chances that they'll be granted asylum are fairly dismal, simply (I can only assume) to solve the problem in the short term. And that's the essence of this issue -- it's a scam. There is no basis for giving these people the idea that the "forms" they are given will in any way assist them in finding a better home, or that Canada is a panacea for their ills, or that their chances for long-term residence here are anything more than bleak. I think that may be what really burns me -- it's taking advantage of desperate people for... what, exactly? I'm not entirely sure what the rationale is for this type of thing... ridding the U.S. of illegal immigrants? Or trying to give them better homes? Perhaps someone can clarify this for me.

Norarc
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(in reply to luckydog1)

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RE: Passing the Buck - 9/22/2007 11:11:42 AM

luckydog1

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Norac, if the US GOV was putting them on busses and shipping them north, you would have a point. But we aren't and you don't. Both your articles say most are showing up in thier own cars (not being bussed) or walking in. They found out what you have available for them. And they know that if they set foot on your soil, they will get a great life for close to 2 years. And the more that show up, the longer they get to stay, by overloading your system to determine status. These are individuals who choose to emigrate to Canada. Do you want the people telling what your benefits are to be arrested for some reason? This is just starting for you. And the fact is Canada has the easiest rules on refugee status, of all 1st world nations. Canada is indeed going to be a panacea for many of their ills, great services while they wait. Of course they are going to notice. Other than you bitching about immigrants (they are not even illegal in Canada, untill they are found inelligable for refugee status and ordered out, or have a baby.) I do not see what your point is, or why you are trying to blame the US.

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RE: Passing the Buck - 9/22/2007 11:50:08 AM

sophia37

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Well, Termi8ter got me interested in the mile wide highway story. I never heard of it. So I went the the "Nation" and read about it. The mile wide highway is a myth. Halfway into the article if shows you how. Interesting. http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070827/hayes

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RE: Passing the Buck - 9/22/2007 1:22:10 PM

pahunkboy

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From: Central Pennsylvania
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Canada is a beautiful place, a few of my close friends live in Canada.

Did I mention Canada has a balanced budget ??

My brother made some calls to get a blah-blah-blah to help him redo his roof. This supposid hard worker thing is slipping.

Canada is free to govern itself. I dont think we are purposely dissing CA in this case. It isnt too different to what Pennyslvania does to New Jersey.

I wish noise would be made about acid rain. Canada squawked about it loudly to no avail. THEN Canada pointed out that Pennsylvania is being destroyed by acid rain.
Then there was brief attention.

I just came from Chicago- where the air quality makes that great American city- look like a has been place. SHAME ON CHICAGOLAND and points east! It rains down on us, kills trees and fades paint on our cars. The pollution was worse then I ever seen it in my entire life! So bad- I choaked.

It fricken sucks!

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RE: Passing the Buck - 9/22/2007 4:21:09 PM

LotusSong

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From: Domme Emeritus
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You have my sympathies. What I hsaveheard is that the Mexican government actualy GIVES people instructions onhow to get into our country undetected. Then there are those smugglers that will charge their own kind and bring them .over the border and drop them in the desert to die. Sounds as if this Hatian group found a way to make a buck. Don't take if personally and don't blame the Americans. This situation just caught up with you guys.

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