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marriage with an expiration date? - 9/21/2007 9:48:17 AM

LivingInSin

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070921/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_germany_politics_marriage

So I came across this article and thought "wow, what a wonderful idea!" what are your thoughts?

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RE: marriage with an expiration date? - 9/21/2007 10:24:07 AM

ChainsandFreedom

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Just so you know where I'm coming from:
I'm a newly-wed and wouldnt have married if we thought a divorce would happen. I also think divorce should be cheaper/easier in the US for couples who want one. I do think traditional marriages are becoming obsolete, but if two people are in love, want to raise kids, whatever else, nobody should stop them

...Also, I don't give a flying cr*p what Paulies conservative catholic party of Belgum or whatever says about her statement-it even bothers me that I agree with them about her being wrong.

1) wheres the hard numbers? Pauli say's marriages often don't work, but is there any proof that seven years is the right amount of time or that "automatic" divorce's would help anyone? Sounds like just her opionion, to me.

"The basic approach is wrong ... many marriages last just because people believe they are safe," - Paulie.
-again, opion. who's to say how many marriages last only because of saftey?
wouldn't these saftey-marriages just re-apply for a licesnse because its more safe and stay married anyway?

2) It's insulting to divorced people. You want out, you want out now. why wait around for an 'automatic' divorce to get on with your life?

3) it's insulting to happily married people. You already told the government you want to be married. Most people intend to stay married forever, at least in the begining. How would the government asking 'are you sure?' 'how about now?' help your life? let these people decide to get a divorce the way they decided to get married-by themselves.

4) it hurts same-sex marriage campagins. The homo-phobes biggest argument is that same-sex dilutes the "institution of marriage" whatever that means. So this would only fuel their fears of marriage being 'diluted'.
Also, it insults these brave people who are fighting for the right to love whomever they want as long as they want based on the power of love.

5) taxes and kids. Divorce can't be automatic anyway-there are family and finicial and leagle issues that require a judge/accountants/whatever to finalize and make official/leagal. 'automatic' divorce would be an administrative hell to carry out.

(in reply to LivingInSin)

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RE: marriage with an expiration date? - 9/21/2007 10:37:14 AM

SusanofO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChainsandFreedom

if two people are in love, want to raise kids, whatever else, nobody should stop them

LivingInSin, (and whoever else thinks this is a wonderful idea): This response of mine here is not directed at you - but I wanted to say that I used to work in a shelter for abused UMs awaiting Foster Care, and I just had to comment on the above statement.

When I worked there, I grew very weary of divorcing (or divorced) adult parents who were self-centered enough to view their children as if they were some sort of disposable accessory, kind of like a pet they didn't really even like that much.

**Maybe nobody can stop them.

But I still think that perhaps this thought might be wise to consider: That people who just decide to "end it" - simply because they are sick of eachother - might be hurting their kids, and doing lasting emotional damage to them, by breaking up simply because they want to move on to "something else".

Just my two cents.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/21/2007 10:47:42 AM >

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"Hope is the thing with feathers,
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And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: marriage with an expiration date? - 9/21/2007 10:48:10 AM

ChainsandFreedom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChainsandFreedom

if two people are in love, want to raise kids, whatever else, nobody should stop them

ChainsandFreedom: This response of mine here is not directed at you - but I wanted to say that I used to work in a shelter for abused UMs awaiting Foster Care, and i just had to make a comment on the above statement.

When I worked there, I grew very weary of adult parents who were self-centered enough to view their children as if they were some sort of disposable accessory, kind of like a pet they didn't really even like that much.

**Maybe nobody can stop them. But I still think that perhaps this thought might be wose to consider: That people who just decide to "end it" - simply because they are sick of eachother - might be hurting the kids, and doing lasting emotional damage to them. Just my two cents.

- Susan

- Susan: I agree with your good point. I'm conflicted here. On the one hand, I don't think people need to be any more encouraged than they already are to get a divorce because divorce can hurt the kids more than not-in-love-but-civil-and-stable-good-parentness can.

on the other hand, I was actually thinking of spousal abuse when I wrote 'if you want out, get out now'.

I wish there was some sort of magical/high-science test to look into the future and make sure people would be good parents before they were allowed to have kids...untill that day, I'm going to wait a few more years untill parenthood (if ever, says Madame G when it comes up) and be open to suggestions of how to solve this huge problem.

(in reply to SusanofO)

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RE: marriage with an expiration date? - 9/21/2007 10:58:35 AM

SusanofO

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ChainsandFreedom: I do too, if there was a way to fairly implement the idea, I would definitely be all for licensing people to become parents. Because I think there are plenty of folks out there who just aren't very good ones, and appear to not really even want to be parents (but they are).

That the woman referred to in the aticle made no mention of the potential impact of this idea on children told me all I needed to know about her, frankly.

On the other hand - I don't think it's all that revolutionary an idea - because most people who don't want to stay married these days, simply divorce anyway - before (or after) 7 years are up. So - it's not as if there doesn't already exist a way for people to end their marriages.

*The new twist here - is that they could end their marriage out of boredom, etc. - and a "7 year review" of the state of their marital circumstances might in fact, IMO, encourage this.

Maybe the parents are bored with eachother after 7 years - but I am pretty sure some of their kids might not be too happy if they decided to split up simply due to this, and for no other reason.

Of course I am sure this woman will justify her ideas by claiming we all have a right to pursue our own interests, be happy, etc. - well, fine.

Except if that is all you are interested in - pursuing your own interests - then why bother getting married at all? There is nothing wrong with being single, or in living with someone (although IMO, if people are gonna have kids, I think it's nice if they're married (but that is my own preference in these matters).

Because the minute you become married - you have automatically enmeshed another person's fate with your own, in ways that have some distinct ramifications - in terms of legal rights, ability to make medical decisions, property rights, etc. Add kids to the mix, and you are involving several other people in your "life plan" - no matter how selfish or screwed up it is - as well.

**I won't argue that some of the "spark" can (and often does go out of a marriage after X number of years). Maybe for childless couples, it's not a bad idea. Alhtough I still know people who would not have any other partner than the one they originally chose to marry - even after decades. But the idea that everyone is like this is, IMO, nonsense (to me). I am no big believer in the idea that "the one" exists for people seeking and finding LT partners.

What I have a problem with, though - is that this idea doesn't appear to me to be a very well-thought-out idea, as far as it considers many of the other things that sometimes come with being married, and the most important of these, IMO - can be children.

This might sound "old fashioned" of me, but I don't care. It's just my opinion. This woman in the article doesn't exactly strike me as un-selfish, or as a very deep, long-term thinker.

I suppose one could argue that the reason this idea might seem threatening to UMs, is just because they are "used to" parents stay together - it is pretty much (as an idea anyway) a social convention for this to be considered "ideal".

However, even if UMs might be slowly convinced, were this idea implemented, that it's normal for one of their parents to have a different partner every 7 years - (which could mean 2 or 3 different "moms or dads" for them, by the time they are 21 and of adult legal status) - I still think it is an idea I'd not want to risk the emotional welfare of children to "test out", in terms of trying to revolutionize it's base-line social acceptability.

Because I've seen the fall-out from frequent disruption of UMs lives due to selfishly-motivated parenting. And I include this idea in the broad realm of what I'd consider to be selfish motivations for ending a marriage, when children are involved.

-Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/21/2007 11:32:54 AM >

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"Hope is the thing with feathers,
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And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to ChainsandFreedom)

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RE: marriage with an expiration date? - 9/21/2007 11:32:45 AM

Sinergy

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I did a final project in college positing that a solution to the divorce nonsense in our country would be to make
marraige a 5 year renewable contract. The primary issues with the 7 year theory deals with the issues of property
and children. My contract was similar to the concept of a pre-nuptial agreement, wherein at the conclusion of the 5 years the two parties have already agreed to who gets what and how the children are to be cared for.

Sinergy

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(in reply to SusanofO)

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RE: marriage with an expiration date? - 9/21/2007 11:39:26 AM

SusanofO

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Physical and financial caring for any children involved is a concern, but it wouldn't be my main concern (I am viewing it as a "given" in this discussion). My main concern with this idea would be the long-term emotional impact on kids, of having 2 or 3 different "moms" or "dads".

I know there are people who will just say well that happens now - like that is a reason for it to continue to happen. I guess if people are really not thinking they are going to stay together - and this idea pretty much admits that probability up front, than I am even more convinced they should probably hold off on the idea of just diving right in and becoming parents.

I think people who want to become parents should also be able to provide some ongoing emotional stability for their kids as a couple, not simply financial stability. But that is just me, and I am really opinionated about this particular topic.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/21/2007 11:51:40 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Sinergy)

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RE: marriage with an expiration date? - 9/21/2007 11:41:58 AM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Physical and financial caring for any children involved is a concern, but it wouldn't be my main concern. My main coincern would eb the ling-term emotional impact on them of having 2 or 3 sets of parents.

I know there are peple who will just say well that happens now - like that is a reason for it to continue to happen. I guess if people are really not thinking they are going to stay together - and this idea pretty much admits that probability up front, than I am even more convinced they should probably hold off on the idea of just diving right in and becoming parents. I think people who want to become parents shoud also be able to provide some ongoing emotional stability for their kids as a couple, not simply fincancial stability. But that is just me.

- Susan

I agree with you, Susan.

I simply pointed out that reality falls far short of the ideal in the institution of marraige. I tend to think that
doing the same thing over and over again hoping for a different outcome qualifies as psychotic behavior.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to SusanofO)

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RE: marriage with an expiration date? - 9/21/2007 11:48:41 AM

SusanofO

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Well I don't doubt people can and often do become bored with their partners after X number of years of marriage. The only alternative (long-range) I can see here is revolutionizing society and advocating communal living, or something, as an alternative.

**I have also (unlike many on the CM message boards) always understood the idea of a partner wanting to have "an affair" - and I am all for keeping "affairs" as big a secret from any UMs as is possible - because the idea is disturbing and disruptive to them.

But, IMO not as disruptive or disturbing as partners splitting up for good, or as a divorce can be for UMs - especially if the partners are having an affair simply out of boredom, or simple incompatibility with their current partner. I always thought people getting all upset over the idea of extra-marital affairs (especially secret ones, kept from UMs) was out of proportion to long-term damage the alternative can and often does cause.

I think the author of this idea proposes her idea as a way to end marital boredom. But it still leaves quite a few resulting issues un-answered, IMO. I think it might make sense, as long as kids are not involved.

**Maybe advocating her idea as an option only for people who don't have (or plan to have) children would be an effective way for people to better consider the serious ramifications of deciding to become parents, I dunno.

But I doubt that communal living as a social trend is going to happen soon, either. IMO, there is a reason marriage has survived as an institution, and I don't think it's only for legal or historically precedental reasons.

Otherwise, why aren't we all living in communes, somewhere, instead of seeing a proliferation of societal mongamy, on an almost world-wide basis (with very few exceptions, here and there)?

I any case, it is an interesting question (to me) - I am actually in favor of being Poly - but I would never do it if I had a UM with me. And I'm not really arguing with you, just stating an opinion (in case you wonder).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/21/2007 12:42:23 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Sinergy)

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RE: marriage with an expiration date? - 9/21/2007 12:06:23 PM

Sinergy

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Im not really arguing either, SusanofO.

While marraige has certain problems, monogamy has certain problems, infidelity has certain problems, polygamy has certain problems.

"In short, people are a problem." Douglas Adams.

I just happen to have studied this rather extensively for two years from the standpoint of historical antecedents, feminism, psychology, sociology, and literature. I had fun in college.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to SusanofO)

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RE: marriage with an expiration date? - 9/21/2007 12:08:04 PM

SusanofO

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Well, what is your opinion on why marriage has histoically survived as an institution? Does it really revolve around the idea of providing stability for raising children (however badly or well, that idea has played out in reality)? Or is there another reason, in your opinion? Just wondering.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/21/2007 12:09:15 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Sinergy)

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RE: marriage with an expiration date? - 9/21/2007 12:20:09 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Well, what is your opinion on why marriage has histoically survived as an institution? Does it really revolve around the idea of providing stability for raising children (however badly or well, that idea has played out in reality)? Or is there another reason, in your opinion? Just wondering.

- Susan

Jared Diamond made the point in both "Why Is Sex Fun?" and "The Third Chimpanzee" that from a natural selection standpoint, largely due to the long time from fertilization (and a woman being unable to fully care for herself in a hunter/gatherer society) to the child being able to care for itself, it is most likely that our tendency for monogamy was inbred.

Marraige, one could posit, is simply a cognitive label given to something which is inherent in the nature of the human animal.

Marx made a good point that the institution of marraige is simply mankind's way for the male to mark which people (wife, kids) are "his" and not somebody elses. In other words, these people here are My property and not yours, and you need to go find your own while I take care of what is mine. (I had a lot of issues reading this; I dont see other people as being "property.")

Just me, could be wrong, etc.

Sinergy

p.s. What was also interesting about Jared Diamond's work is that it also posits polygamy and infidelity among the human species as positive traits for passing along the man's genetic material. Men tend to be a lot more upset about infidelity than women are because of the inbred worry that the children he is raising may not be his. He does not want to spend his life raising somebody else's genetic material, from a natural selection standpoint.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to SusanofO)

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RE: marriage with an expiration date? - 9/21/2007 12:24:03 PM

SusanofO

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Thanks for the post, I appreciate you posting the information. I guess I am not stating either, that there are not single parents I know who are good parents. I do.

But if we are talking societal ideal here (as in UMs havign two married parents, let's not discuss what sex they need to be, either - that is an entirely different discussion, IMO - having 2 parents, IMO is generally better than having one) - then I don't think the author of this article has really covered the ramifications of her idea, as far as any long-term impact on families w/UMs, in general.

So I can't take her idea all that seriously. Because, IMO, it undermines that idea, instead of promoting it - from what I can see from what was written in this short article.

Actually, besides that (what I said immediately above, and the implication that it promotes serial marraige for no other reason than sheer boredom with a partner) - it seems to me to be mostly redundant as an idea - because if people are truly terribly unhappy in their marriages, for reasons ranging from abuse to sheer boredom - then they can get a divorce and end it, right now, without this kind of legislation anyway (and they do).

* AndI also agree with what ChainsandFreedom said, as far as other reasons I think it is kind of stupid, as a workable piece of legislation.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/21/2007 1:15:53 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Sinergy)

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RE: marriage with an expiration date? - 9/21/2007 1:46:10 PM

ChainsandFreedom

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quote:

I just happen to have studied this rather extensively for two years from the standpoint of historical antecedents, feminism, psychology, sociology, and literature. I had fun in college.

-quick reply before I respond to the rest::

So, I had fun in college too.
according to sociology, anthropology, economics, psychology and many of the more pragmatic, holistic, and well-rounded schools of feminism: two parents (in lieu of an entire villiage/community/tribe) are necessary to children both from a resources and a role-modelling/gender-modelling perspective. Can be done with one, but just because it can doesnt mean its an ideal.

(in reply to Sinergy)

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RE: marriage with an expiration date? - 9/21/2007 2:38:55 PM

ChainsandFreedom

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quote:

Marx made a good point that the institution of marraige is simply mankind's way for the male to mark which people (wife, kids) are "his" and not somebody elses. In other words, these people here are My property and not yours, and you need to go find your own while I take care of what is mine. (I had a lot of issues reading this; I dont see other people as being "property.")

-Don't get me wrong, I regard Marx as being one of the founders of the mordern western economy and I think his works, like shakespear, are eternal, revolutionary, and a must-read for anyone willing to wade through them.

My issue here is that Marx had all these new idea's, but he was still a product of an old world. I dont think he was able to imagine a reality in which women shared as much power as they do today with men. Certainly he didn't invision a world in which their labor was compensated on an (almost and rising) equal footing with men. Women of his time wernt allowed to vote, initiate a divorce, or own property-women today have some disadvantages, certainly, but they are no longer leagally defined as the husbands property as they used to be in marx's day.

Take for instance divorce, in which the courts regaurd the children as primarily the womans 'property' and the man's finacial burden.

further, I thought Marx missed the boat about a key issue regaurding marraige. A woman was much more able to climb the class ladder through who she married than a man. Sure, women had to raise children and put up with their husbands. But at least they didn't have to work in a coal mine themselves, shortening their lifespan and such as Marx pointed out, usually. I think this is why some feminist's argue that a woman should have the right to WANT to raise children, why some people (mistakingly)think that gold-digging is actually empowerment, and why most third-wave feminist's recognize that wealthy woman still have always exercised power, albiet in a differant sphere than men.

(in reply to Sinergy)

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RE: marriage with an expiration date? - 9/21/2007 2:55:56 PM

ChainsandFreedom

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quote:

That the woman referred to in the aticle made no mention of the potential impact of this idea on children told me all I needed to know about her, frankly.

On the other hand - I don't think it's all that revolutionary an idea - because most people who don't want to stay married these days, simply divorce anyway - before (or after) 7 years are up. So - it's not as if there doesn't already exist a way for people to end their marriages.
......

Of course I am sure this woman will justify her ideas by claiming we all have a right to pursue our own interests, be happy, etc. - well, fine.

Except if that is all you are interested in - pursuing your own interests - then why bother getting married at all? There is nothing wrong with being single, or in living with someone (although IMO, if people are gonna have kids, I think it's nice if they're married (but that is my own preference in these matters).

Because the minute you become married - you have automatically enmeshed another person's fate with your own, in ways that have some distinct ramifications - in terms of legal rights, ability to make medical decisions, property rights, etc. Add kids to the mix, and you are involving several other people in your "life plan" - no matter how selfish or screwed up it is - as well.

-Susan, as far as I am concerned, your preaching (well) to a choir.

-Personally, I think there should be less trouble getting a divorce but less push to get married in the first place. Why should it only cost 50 bucks to get a marrage license but 1,000 plus leagal fees and a good reason to get a divorce? Isn't wanting out as valid as wanting to get into one in the first place? If you can't be denied love, why can you be denied getting out of love?

-Being happy with someone for the rest of your life has always been a very rare ideal.

Look at, oh I dont know...Dorean Gray, Romeo and Juliette, the Indigenous American stories about lovers leaping off a cliff if they can't be together, Indian Subconenant / middle eastern / european nobility historical stories (or modern bollywood) of conflict between arrainged marriage and love marriage.

Obviously, marriage serves social, political, practical reasons beyond child-rearing and love. I actually think these social/practical reasons have tended historically to get in the way of real love and happiness-'gee I can't marry her because I can't afford a ring', or 'our parents made us get married when she got pregnant', or 'My religious relatives are angry the wedding isnt happening according to X form of worship'.

so I guess I think people should be taught that they dont need kids and thay don't need marriage to be happy.

But now that thats happening more and more in the modern world, people tend to assume anyone who's found long-term love is dilusional, socially conservative, and a square.Dependance can = teamwork can = a good thing, not a bad thing.

SO I feel like people need to stop trying to pressure young people to get married, but young people need to stop asuming their married peers are less than progressive and doomed to unhappiness. Feminism would die out along with the rest of human culture if it wern't for stable households to raise more critical and well-adjusted thinkers-there is nothing antifeminist/un-PC about marriage and jointly raising young ones. There would be nothing more detrimental to woman than strapping them with the sole responsiblity to raise kids AND the need to work as single mothers their whole lives.

Its that simple: choose for yourself, and have laws that facilitate your decsion quickly and easily.

(in reply to SusanofO)

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RE: marriage with an expiration date? - 9/21/2007 5:52:31 PM

Sinergy

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I was asked a question, ChainsandFreedom, and I answered it.

I wrote the paper because of a problem I saw in the United States, as the divorce rate skyrocketted (for reasons I am unwilling to go in to), wherein I attempted to posit a workable approach towards marriages (which dont tend to last) and having kids and property (which do tend to last).

I think children do better with two parents, but unfortunately, when viewed in context, marraiges do not last long enough in the US to raise them. One can either do a Mess-o-potamia on the problem, or search for other solutions.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

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RE: marriage with an expiration date? - 9/21/2007 5:56:43 PM

Sinergy

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For those playing the home game, I use the term "doing a mess-o-potamia" as a euphemism for doing the same idiotic thing over and over again and waiting for the situation to change to what I personally think it should change to.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Sinergy)

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RE: marriage with an expiration date? - 9/21/2007 9:39:00 PM

Vendaval

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I think that the entire social ideal of a long-term, monogamous, 2 person, heterosexual
partnership is being re-examined, expanded, modified and mutated.

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RE: marriage with an expiration date? - 9/21/2007 9:40:31 PM

RRafe

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If you can see an end at the beginning-you are doing it for the wrong reason.

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