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Rudy wants to expand NATO, expand military - 9/20/2007 7:13:36 AM   
cyberdude611


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Status: offline 		Rudy Giuliani says he wants to add Israel, Japan, Australia, India, and Singapore to the NATO alliance and wants to add 10 combat divisions to the US military. And he says this is just the beginning.

Rudy says that the west not only needs to continue the war on terrorism but needs to be prepared for a possible "large war with a nation-state."

He made specific statements against Iran:
"The policy of the United States of America should be very, very clear: we will use any option we believe is in our best interest to stop them from being a nuclear power," Giuliani said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070919/pl_nm/iran_giuliani_dc_3&printer=1;_ylt=AqwRa.3gjLAYMnQf2CiuC3Eb.3QA
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RE: Rudy wants to expand NATO, expand military - 9/20/2007 7:24:07 AM   
farglebargle


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Who cares?

Rudy is a loser.

He couldn't even site the NYC Disaster Recovery center properly... ( Well, it was good for him to cheat on his family... )

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RE: Rudy wants to expand NATO, expand military - 9/20/2007 7:31:19 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Guiliani is off his trolley. He is mixing up the US's global interests with the interests of NATO members as a whole. NATO was basically a defensive alliance but turning it into an offensive alliance will cause a bigger crack than my arse. As for the idea of Israel being a member of NATO, that will be a none starter, it's fucking idiotic to consider a new member that has shown nothing but aggression and little stomach for peace over the last 60 years and will just speed up the break up of NATO. Again, he is assuming the US's national interest in the middle east is the same as that of other NATO members, it isn't.

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RE: Rudy wants to expand NATO, expand military - 9/20/2007 7:37:29 AM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		He wants to double Gitmo,too.Promises,promises.

Rudy is "bush x 10",but without the charm or character.

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RE: Rudy wants to expand NATO, expand military - 9/20/2007 7:39:13 AM   
cyberdude611


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Status: offline 		He'd be better off reviving SEATO (Southeast Asia Treaty Organization). Or just expand ANZUS (Australia, New Zealand, United States Security Treaty).

As for NATO, there is already talks of expanding it further into Eastern Europe. Which is the main reason Russia is getting all pissed off right now.

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RE: Rudy wants to expand NATO, expand military - 9/20/2007 7:53:16 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

As for NATO, there is already talks of expanding it further into Eastern Europe. Which is the main reason Russia is getting all pissed off right now.


They've got reason to be pissed off, they were promised NATO wouldn't be expanded up to its border. It is little wonder why the Russians don't trust the west.

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RE: Rudy wants to expand NATO, expand military - 9/20/2007 8:13:58 AM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

They've got reason to be pissed off, they were promised NATO wouldn't be expanded up to its border. It is little wonder why the Russians don't trust the west.


Well I dont think they were "promised" anything. Russia has always considered those eastern european nations as a buffer between Russia and western Europe. And since the fall of the Soviet Union, Russians have watched that buffer slowly disappear as the west continues to gain influence in the eastern european states.
But the distrust Russia has of the west predates NATO and even predates the United States. Russia has not trusted the west (nor any of its neighbors) since the 13th century. Too many people have tried to take over Russia over the centuries and they've grown a bit paranoid. That's why Putin is having trouble with muslims now. He's trying to push them out of Georgia to keep Islamic influence from spreading further into Russia.

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RE: Rudy wants to expand NATO, expand military - 9/20/2007 8:21:26 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

But the distrust Russia has of the west predates NATO and even predates the United States. Russia has not trusted the west (nor any of its neighbors) since the 13th century. Too many people have tried to take over Russia over the centuries and they've grown a bit paranoid. That's why Putin is having trouble with muslims now. He's trying to push them out of Georgia to keep Islamic influence from spreading further into Russia.


After Napoleon and Hitler, is there really any wonder why Russia doesn't trust the west, just as Poland doesn't trust Germany or Russia. After the fall of the USSR, the last hing east Europe needs is the sowing of tension by expanding NATO eastwards.

Hell, I don't see the point, NATO has had its day as Afghanistan is proving, most members only pay lip service to it anyway.

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RE: Rudy wants to expand NATO, expand military - 9/20/2007 9:51:32 AM   
farglebargle


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Status: offline 		Perhaps they have cause for concern. Remember the lack of Honor shown by the US in their relations with the Native Americans.



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Rudy wants to expand NATO, expand military - 9/20/2007 10:13:40 AM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		This is exactly the type of thinking we *don't* need in Washington.
NATO should have been disbanded years ago.
It's sole reason for being doesn't even exist anymore.
But it might again if they keep "expanding" NATO.
Talk about *bad management.* Another lawyer who thinks he can manage things.
If Thompson, Mc Cain or Rudy were to get into the W.H. I think we could count on being in Iraq for (another) four years.
No thanks.
The paralells to Vietnam are scary.
And "Ten More Divisions?" For what? What would that add to the DOD budget every year, another $20 B or so?
The only way they could do that would be with a Draft.
We need to be cutting spending!
Let's let Europe handle Iran this time.
We should be CLOSING Embasseys not opening more!
Half of the Embasseys we have now are not neccessary!
Their only function is as foreign aid and immigration outposts!
That monstrosity of an "Embassey" in Iraq is the size of a small city!
A thousand "diplomats" are there now!
I think The American People want a *change in direction* not "more of the same" times ten! I know I do!
The thing is, I don't want to *PAY* for all this nonsense as a Taxpayer!
Bin Laden is in Pakistan, not Iraq. Go in and GET that S.O.B.!
As far as I'm concerned Wudy, Thompson, and McCain can go and sit in the corner until the election is over.
They'd never get my vote!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 9/20/2007 10:54:20 AM >

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RE: Rudy wants to expand NATO, expand military - 9/20/2007 10:40:28 AM   
Casie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Rudy Giuliani says he wants to add Israel, Japan, Australia, India, and Singapore to the NATO alliance and wants to add 10 combat divisions to the US military. And he says this is just the beginning.

Rudy says that the west not only needs to continue the war on terrorism but needs to be prepared for a possible "large war with a nation-state."

He made specific statements against Iran:
"The policy of the United States of America should be very, very clear: we will use any option we believe is in our best interest to stop them from being a nuclear power," Giuliani said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070919/pl_nm/iran_giuliani_dc_3&printer=1;_ylt=AqwRa.3gjLAYMnQf2CiuC3Eb.3QA


I really despise Rudy, Lisp and all lol!! More NATO is the last thing we need.

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RE: Rudy wants to expand NATO, expand military - 9/20/2007 12:01:44 PM   
ChicagoSwitchMal


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Status: offline 		I understand people despising NATO but I'm not ready to abandon it just yet. NATO is the most successful and most promising Alliance in the history of the world. People remember only when it has failed. I wonder how many wars didn't happen because of this combined political might of NATO.

Personally I'd like to see Japan become a part of NATO. I think countries who might not nessesailry provide military support for NATO operations often do honor NATO ordered sanctions and embargos. I'd like to see Japaneze computer and electronic technologies not make it into our enemies hands.

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RE: Rudy wants to expand NATO, expand military - 9/20/2007 12:31:30 PM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		The obvious question would be ... what do we need NATO for?
 
I think is would be smarter to modernizing the Air Force with a backbone of F22 and F35 fighters and the Navy with the F35C ... and combine this with an understanding that the purpose of our military is to defend us, rather than something to use as a policy tool.

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RE: Rudy wants to expand NATO, expand military - 9/20/2007 12:36:22 PM   
ChicagoSwitchMal


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Status: offline 		The combined weight of the NATO nations killed the cold war without a shot. I think that's an accomplishment but I hear you. I'm not sure we "need" NATO anymore either. But I am not confident we wouldn't need an alliance in the future. China could orginize with Iran. The oil producing nations might someday come to their senses and collaborate (sort of there already with OPEC). let's not forget that NATO also sponsor humantiarian efforts and it's not just all about war.

I hear ya and I struggle with the question myself. I'm just sure I'm ready to give up on the idea yet.

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RE: Rudy wants to expand NATO, expand military - 9/20/2007 12:45:51 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChicagoSwitchMal

I understand people despising NATO but I'm not ready to abandon it just yet. NATO is the most successful and most promising Alliance in the history of the world. People remember only when it has failed. I wonder how many wars didn't happen because of this combined political might of NATO.

Personally I'd like to see Japan become a part of NATO. I think countries who might not nessesailry provide military support for NATO operations often do honor NATO ordered sanctions and embargos. I'd like to see Japaneze computer and electronic technologies not make it into our enemies hands.


It is? I don't think any of them are "successful" that's the same tired argument that the "U.N." tries to make anytime their funding is threatened.
"Promising?" What are they "promising" us now?
And then of course there's the funding and Troop disparities.
We have 2 million Troops, how many does oh,...Italy have?
And who's paying the Bills for most of this foolishness?
One thing is always certain about buearocracies, they *always* seek to perpetuate themselves.
How many Nato buearocracrats do we have sitting at desks making $80k per year for sending each other "memos" and "attending luncheons?"
I just don't want to pay for that kind of stuff anymore. None of it!
When I was in the U.S. Navy many years ago we did some "Nato Ops" with two Dutch Destroyers.
They were two Fletcher class ww2 Destroyers that should have been scrapped ten years before!
Besides us and England all the other countries in Nato really bring nothing to the table in Troops, Ships or Tanks except the piece of paper that says they're "in" Nato.
The U.S. has 14 Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups. That would be about 140,000 Troops (Sailors and Marines) alone not counting ground forces.
And the E.U. is bigger than us population-wise.
How many Divisions of Troops does the E.U. have?
How are those countries supposed to be our "allies" if they don't have Troops, Ships, Tanks?
And, of course they expect the U.S. to pay for most of this.
Now, what are they "promising" again?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 9/20/2007 12:48:13 PM >

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RE: Rudy wants to expand NATO, expand military - 9/20/2007 1:18:49 PM   
ChicagoSwitchMal


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Status: offline 		I meant promising as an adjective. Not as a verb as in to make a promise. I think my use of the word is pretty clear

But I hear you one hundred percent popeye. I really do. I'm just still formulating my opinion on the subject.

(Showing great promise: Idioms: on the way up. Likely to develop in a desirable manner).

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RE: Rudy wants to expand NATO, expand military - 9/20/2007 1:23:53 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Casie

More NATO is the last thing we need.



I've got to agree. NATO is past its sell by date. The moment Washington started seeing NATO as uniquely a US policy tool rather than a defensive alliance it has become a liability to Europe. The Bush administration's foreign policy has had a destabilizing effect on Europe rather than a stabilizing effect and as a European I can't see the point of being a member of an alliance that is doing opposite of its intended purpose.

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RE: Rudy wants to expand NATO, expand military - 9/20/2007 1:41:35 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Casie

More NATO is the last thing we need.



I've got to agree. NATO is past its sell by date. The moment Washington started seeing NATO as uniquely a US policy tool rather than a defensive alliance it has become a liability to Europe. The Bush administration's foreign policy has had a destabilizing effect on Europe rather than a stabilizing effect and as a European I can't see the point of being a member of an alliance that is doing opposite of its intended purpose.


Mal, I know ow you were using it.

Meat, we agree again!

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