RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (Full Version)

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maybemaybenot -> RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (9/12/2007 5:30:00 AM)

LAM:

It's unlikely there will be a game forfiet imposed as penalty.The major reason being the guy was caught in the first quarter, and the act did not have an effect that would have changed the outcome of the game.

                           mbmbn



KatyLied -> RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (9/12/2007 5:48:51 AM)

It would be a gambling nightmare.  Is it true that a forfeit turns into a 2-0 game?  There is speculation going on and no one seems to know the answer.  As far as the betting goes, does the game remain the same score or does it change to 2-0.  



Lordandmaster -> RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (9/12/2007 6:34:50 AM)

The league would have to make that stuff up as they go along.  There's never been an official forfeit in NFL history.  There was one famous forfeit in 1921, but it's not officially recognized:

http://www.footballresearch.com/articles/frpage.cfm?topic=forfeit

But I doubt the NFL has the conviction to impose a forfeit in this case anyway.  Even if they did, they'd have to figure out some way to accommodate bettors and gamblers (who would obviously have a lot to lose if the final score were changed to 2-0).  The NFL has always tried to make life easy for the gambling world, because they know it indirectly nets them millions.

By the way, the official NFL rules on forfeits read:

quote:

• Forfeit. The Commissioner, (except in cases of disciplinary action; see last section on "Removing Team from Field"), League President, and their representatives, including referees, are not authorized unilaterally to declare forfeits. A forfeit occurs only when a game is not played because of the failure or refusal of one team to participate. In that event, the other team, if ready and willing to play, is the winner by a score of 2-0.


I think this would qualify as "disciplinary action."



KatyLied -> RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (9/12/2007 6:47:47 AM)

LAM, thanks for that info, and that site as well.



Mercnbeth -> RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (9/12/2007 1:05:26 PM)

Gotta love the NY tabloids...
quote:

Apparently so desperate his Hall of Fame bust might now read: “Some considered him the Vince Lombardi of his era. Others considered him the Richard Nixon of his era.”
Source: http://www.nypost.com/seven/09122007/sports/jets/robbed_jets_deserve_re_do.htm



maybemaybenot -> RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (9/12/2007 8:22:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Gotta love the NY tabloids...


Well, I LOVE this guy from the NY Tabloids:
MANGINI:  HERO OR HEEL?
Rich Cimini of the New York Daily News reports that the Patriots' efforts to videotape defensive signals was brought to light by former New England defensive coordinator Eric Mangini, who shared the information in 2006 with members of the Jets' organization.
"When Eric came, he said that's what they used to do," a source told Cimini.  "Bill [Belichick] is going to be [ticked] at Eric.  He kissed and told."
It would be easy to proclaim that Mangini did the right thing, ignoring the good-old-boys' network and bringing to light Belichick's dirty little secret.
But it would naive to do so, too.
Mangini didn't blow the whistle when he first learned of the situation, while Mangini was working for the Patriots.  Instead, he took advantage of the competitive advantage, and parlayed it into a head-coaching job of his own.
And then Mangini blew the whistle in a manner that will eventually create for him a competitive advantage, since it will result in the imposition of some sort of a sanction on the Patriots.
But should Mangini be allowed to have it both ways?  And did he bother to consider whether bringing this situation to light might indirectly call into question his own credentials to be a head coach?
Meanwhile, there's talk in league circles that Mangini will find it very hard to win the trust of anyone in the NFL moving forward.  Even though Belichick has no cause to gripe about getting caught under circumstances where he knew that the opposing head coach knew what Belichick was doing, the truth is that anyone who chooses to confide in Mangini now or in the future will do so at his own peril.
Keep that in mind, Mike Tannenbaum, if/when you ever consider doing something like, say, contacting the agent for a player who is under contract with another team.
 
 
                  mbmbn



cuffnspankme -> RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (9/12/2007 9:42:40 PM)

Sheesh, all the more reason to NOT watch pro football and that is all I am going to say.



Lordandmaster -> RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (9/13/2007 12:10:10 AM)

Very interesting.  Think there's going to be a Belichick-Mangini man-hug next time?

If the Patriots were doing this when Mangini was still around, as the article alleges, I agree that the whole affair raises some questions about Mangini too.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.

And how the hell did they get away with it for so long?

I guess this means they're just going to have to install radios in defensive play-callers' helmets, as they do with QB's.

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

Well, I LOVE this guy from the NY Tabloids:
MANGINI:  HERO OR HEEL?
Rich Cimini of the New York Daily News reports that the Patriots' efforts to videotape defensive signals was brought to light by former New England defensive coordinator Eric Mangini, who shared the information in 2006 with members of the Jets' organization.
"When Eric came, he said that's what they used to do," a source told Cimini.  "Bill [Belichick] is going to be [ticked] at Eric.  He kissed and told."
It would be easy to proclaim that Mangini did the right thing, ignoring the good-old-boys' network and bringing to light Belichick's dirty little secret.
But it would naive to do so, too.
Mangini didn't blow the whistle when he first learned of the situation, while Mangini was working for the Patriots.  Instead, he took advantage of the competitive advantage, and parlayed it into a head-coaching job of his own.
And then Mangini blew the whistle in a manner that will eventually create for him a competitive advantage, since it will result in the imposition of some sort of a sanction on the Patriots.
But should Mangini be allowed to have it both ways?  And did he bother to consider whether bringing this situation to light might indirectly call into question his own credentials to be a head coach?
Meanwhile, there's talk in league circles that Mangini will find it very hard to win the trust of anyone in the NFL moving forward.  Even though Belichick has no cause to gripe about getting caught under circumstances where he knew that the opposing head coach knew what Belichick was doing, the truth is that anyone who chooses to confide in Mangini now or in the future will do so at his own peril.
Keep that in mind, Mike Tannenbaum, if/when you ever consider doing something like, say, contacting the agent for a player who is under contract with another team.
 



UtopianRanger -> RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (9/13/2007 1:07:06 AM)


Well.....I'll just say that I think the rule in it's current form, sucks. They've got guys specifically situated to steal the catcher's and the first and third base coach's signs, etc. As long as G.Gordon Liddy and E.Howard Hunt are not commissioned to place listening devices inside the opposition's headsets.....that part of the game remains all mental.

I actually applaud Belichick and the whole Patriots organization for taking ''winning'' so seriously - After all....pro football isn't just a game anymore [;)]







- R




thompsonx -> RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (9/13/2007 9:52:04 AM)

Sorta reminds one of NASCARs motto.
"IF YOU AIN'T CHEATN' YOU AIN'T RACIN'
thompson



maybemaybenot -> RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (9/13/2007 5:48:05 PM)

Goodell has made his decision:

Here is the final ruling from the NFL:

# Bill Belichick has been fined $500,000 by the NFL. That is the maximum amount under the NFL Constitution and By-Laws for violating league policy last Sunday on the use of equipment to videotape an opposing team’s offensive or defensive signals.

# The Patriots have been fined $250,000 by the NFL.

# The Patriots will give up their first-round pick in 2008 if they make the playoffs. If they don't make the playoffs, they will surrender their second- and third-round picks.

# Belichick will not be suspended.

“This episode represents a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid longstanding rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field,” Commissioner Roger Goodell wrote in a letter to the Patriots.

"I specifically considered whether to impose a suspension on Coach Belichick," Goodell also wrote. "I have determined not to do so, largely because I believe that the discipline I am imposing of a maximum fine and forfeiture of a first-round draft choice, or multiple draft choices, is in fact more significant and long-lasting, and therefore more effective, than a suspension."

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/


                                mbmbn



Satyr6406 -> RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (9/13/2007 5:53:55 PM)

I called the league office, today to discuss my views on what would be appropriate.
 
I think that this decision doesn't address the long term historical ramifications. Apparently, Mr. Belichick has been engaging in this behavior for quite some time and how can we NOT wonder about, not only his prowess as a head coach but, the validity of his team's achievements.
 
In this immediate case, I suggested that while a post-dated forfeiture was not possible, under league rules that the commissioner COULD suspend Mr. Belichick and the entire team for 16 DEC (the next time these two teams are scheduled to meet) which would, in effect, CAUSE a "forfeiture". Even if the Patriots fielded a team from their practice squad, would they have a chance?
 
 
 
 
 
Peace and comfort,
 
 
 
 
 
Michael



SmokingGun82 -> RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (9/13/2007 5:56:48 PM)

Fast Reply:

I'm a Pats fan. I have been since '91, when they went 1-15 and I decided I needed an AFC team to root for. They cheated, they should be docked a few picks in the draft. Not suspensions, not anything else. I'd feel the same way even if they caught those (expletives deleted) Colts. This is being blown WAY out of proportion due to backlash about the Pats winning year in, year out lately.

I wonder more WHY this is against the rules. It's not like the coaches are hiding- they're standing in plain sight, making signs. That's just asking for problems.



cyberdude611 -> RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (9/13/2007 6:13:15 PM)

According to the ESPN, the NFL is going to rule that Coach Bill Bilichek will be fined $500,000 and the Patriots organization is fined an additional $250,000.

The Patriots must forfeit their first round pick if the team reaches the playoffs. If it does not, they must forfeit their 2nd and 3rd round pick.

"This episode represents a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid longstanding rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field," Goodell said in a letter to the Patriots.
NFL policy states that "no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game" and that all video shooting locations for club coaching purposes "must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3018338

Goodell is no Tagliabue. He isn't going to fool around with this kind of junk. He said clearly when he took the job that he will do everything in his power to maintain the integrity of the sport. You break the rules, you better be able to pay for it.



Lordandmaster -> RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (9/13/2007 6:14:38 PM)

Yeah, just read that too.

It's harsher than most people were expecting, so I applaud Goodell for that, but I still think the Patriots should have forfeited the game.  If you're caught cheating in a game, you should forfeit that game.  As much as I hate NASCAR (for other reasons), the cost of cheating in NASCAR is far greater.

And hey, SmokingGun, "blown way out of proportion"?  It's against the rules and they've done it before.  If it weren't against the rules, it wouldn't be against the rules.  But it is against the rules.  I think that's a pretty simple concept.  And don't tell me, oh, it didn't really make any difference, the Patriots would have won anyway.  If they were so sure they'd win anyway, why did they have to resort to cheating?

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

Goodell has made his decision:

Here is the final ruling from the NFL:

# Bill Belichick has been fined $500,000 by the NFL. That is the maximum amount under the NFL Constitution and By-Laws for violating league policy last Sunday on the use of equipment to videotape an opposing team’s offensive or defensive signals.

# The Patriots have been fined $250,000 by the NFL.

# The Patriots will give up their first-round pick in 2008 if they make the playoffs. If they don't make the playoffs, they will surrender their second- and third-round picks.

# Belichick will not be suspended.



KatyLied -> RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (9/13/2007 6:17:45 PM)

Unfortunately, this incident does call into question the dynasty that is The Patriots.  People will always wonder what if they hadn't cheated, players and other coaches are already talking like that.  Anyway, I'm glad that the punishment was swift, because nothing worse than having this drag out for weeks at the start of the season, talk about a distraction.



maybemaybenot -> RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (9/13/2007 6:37:03 PM)

I'm just glad it done. I expected it to be harsher, but not forfieture. I knew that was pretty much out of the question.

This episode doesn't put a question mark on the teams succes for me. Big surprise, huh ? If videotaping defensive calls is all it takes to get to the SB, then I guess even the Raiders and Lions have a shot. Stealing signals is not against the rules, videoing them is. I suspect at least 80% of teams * steal * signals, but not by videotaping. If ya got the signals, whether it be on paper or on tape... you got the signals.  Difference being it's against the rules to have pictures/film of them.

I'm not whitewashing BB's cheating, I am very disgusted and disturbed by it. But it just isn't going to effect my opinion of the performance the players had on the field the years they went to the SB.

                                mbmbn



SmokingGun82 -> RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (9/13/2007 6:43:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster


And hey, SmokingGun, "blown way out of proportion"?  It's against the rules and they've done it before.  If it weren't against the rules, it wouldn't be against the rules.  But it is against the rules.  I think that's a pretty simple concept.  And don't tell me, oh, it didn't really make any difference, the Patriots would have won anyway.  If they were so sure they'd win anyway, why did they have to resort to cheating?


It's blown way out of proportion because if it had been another team busted, you wouldn't have every player and their mother lining up to take shots. The punishment seems to have been fairly reasonable- although a first round pick is a bad shot, it's not crippling.

I saw people comparing this to steroid use- that's ridiculous. Knowing the signals might give you a slight edge, if you're smart enough to analyze them and adjust. There are degrees of cheating, just like anything else.

The best part, to me, is going to be at the end of the season. If the Pats go deep in the playoffs, as I believe they will, with everyone watching them extra close, as I'm sure they will be, then maybe people will quit saying "This proves their Super Bowl rings are tainted!" and other things like that.



maybemaybenot -> RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (9/13/2007 8:06:35 PM)

BB responds :

“I accept full responsibility for the actions that led to tonight’s ruling. Once again, I apologize to the Kraft family and every person directly or indirectly associated with the New England Patriots for the embarrassment, distraction and penalty my mistake caused. I also apologize to Patriots fans and would like to thank them for their support during the past few days and throughout my career.

“As the Commissioner acknowledged, our use of sideline video had no impact on the outcome of last week’s game. We have never used sideline video to obtain a competitive advantage while the game was in progress.

“Part of my job as head coach is to ensure that our football operations are conducted in compliance of the league rules and all accepted interpretations of them. My interpretation of a rule in the Constitution and Bylaws was incorrect.

“With tonight’s resolution, I will not be offering any further comments on this matter. We are moving on with our preparations for Sunday’s game.”

Sorry, I don't have a link yet, it was on a football MB and I am not sure if posting  alink to another MB is within the TOS. Local news ran it too.

                              mbmbn



cloudboy -> RE: New England Patriots.....cheaters? (9/13/2007 8:14:20 PM)

I'm more mad about THE PATRIOTS stealing Tom Brady in the sixth round of the NFL draft. Clearly they must have hidden his scouting tapes from all the other teams in the league. No wonder they've had this dynasty thing going and everyone wants to play up there.

As punishment and compensation, they should have to return Adalius Thomas to the Ravens.

Brian Billick said he's too dumb to steal another team's signals. He probably won't have to, though, v. THE JETS.



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