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RE: Geothermal Heat/cooling 4 homes!~??? - 8/25/2007 7:50:56 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I`m planning a installing a G/T system,in my home.
I have seen them(twice)in costumer`s homes,and was impressed.I didn`t think the home would be warmed,but it was ,and it was virtually free.

There is an initial installation cost to bare,but as energy prices climb,that expense gets payed back quicker and quicker.
The thought of being free of oil or gas,is worth it right there.

The system uses water pumped(circulated) deep underground or along a lake bottom.The system extracts heat from the ground(which is a constant 55degrees) and releases it, to create heated air in your home.
In summer,the system is "reversed",and extracts heat *from* your home,and releases it under ground.Thus cooling the air of your HVAC system.

Hard to comprehend,but it works.Get`s oil company executives pissed off,which is an added bonus.

the payoff seemed like 3 yrs.

[8 is too long]

Lowes has 5 packs of the energy effient bulbs- for $10. im gradually switching over to them-[except for decorative lighting]

my electric bill this month, $34, gas $12. so thats not bad for 1 person, 2000 sq feet.

BUT- my April heatuing bill was $200!!! this is before i insulated and brought in my furnace guy. he tweeked the system so i can heat 3, 5 or 12 rooms. i still need to heat tape a few pipes...

As the cost of a barrel of oil goes up,those "pay-back" times shorten.

Just imagine thinking in the fall,"hey,I don`t have to pay for heat this winter,or the next winter,or the next" and so on.....

My town is switching to "town water",so I`ll be using my existing water well,to extract the energy from.It`s the underground loop installation,or water well drilling,that initially cost so much ,and which cost must be considered with G/T.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 8/25/2007 7:52:01 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 21

RE: Geothermal Heat/cooling 4 homes!~??? - 8/25/2007 5:04:11 PM

bignipples2share

Posts: 611
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline

I've looked at alot of systems too, trying to convert everything over to get off the grid. Put in some solar panels, the g/t and it's looking like around 20,000.00 to get everything up and running. Consider the longest any of this lasts is 20-25years, that's 800.00 to 1,000.00 a month. There's no way I spend that kinda money each month. Then if you factor in the loan amount..whewwww

Yes, there are some tax advantages, but in 20 years, you're gonna have to do it all over again. I really want to live off the grid. Part of my house is underground, but they sure did an awful job on the upstairs..it's 94 degrees in here, with the fan and windows open.

~Big

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 22

RE: Geothermal Heat/cooling 4 homes!~??? - 8/25/2007 6:16:44 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bignipples2share

I've looked at alot of systems too, trying to convert everything over to get off the grid. Put in some solar panels, the g/t and it's looking like around 20,000.00 to get everything up and running. Consider the longest any of this lasts is 20-25years, that's 800.00 to 1,000.00 a month. There's no way I spend that kinda money each month. Then if you factor in the loan amount..whewwww

Yes, there are some tax advantages, but in 20 years, you're gonna have to do it all over again. I really want to live off the grid. Part of my house is underground, but they sure did an awful job on the upstairs..it's 94 degrees in here, with the fan and windows open.

~Big

Yes,G/T`s cost is high,b/c of the excavation or well drilling involved.The rest of the system is about the same ,cost wise.
If you don`t have the extra money to drill a well,you have to stick w/ conventional heat.
Around where I live,there is a six month wait for well drillers.Then you have to pay them whatever they want,(plus a hand job).

The other huge plus w/ G/T, is that it will also cool your home in summer.That`s just plain out money saving,and very green.

A side note,I installed radiant floor heat in a home I once owned.
No base-boards, no radiators,or dry air ducts,just cozy, warm- footed happiness.That was also expensive to install,but well worth it.I did the install myself,and only had to pay for the loops and fittings.That house used a high-efficiency, hot water circulation furnace.The present owner raves about it.I plan to install radiant floors in my bathrooms and kitchen,here in Jersey.

Another note,I heat my house w/ a wood stove,for free.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 8/25/2007 6:22:25 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to bignipples2share)

Post #: 23

RE: Geothermal Heat/cooling 4 homes!~??? - 8/25/2007 7:13:39 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bignipples2share

I've looked at alot of systems too, trying to convert everything over to get off the grid. Put in some solar panels, the g/t and it's looking like around 20,000.00 to get everything up and running. Consider the longest any of this lasts is 20-25years, that's 800.00 to 1,000.00 a month. There's no way I spend that kinda money each month. Then if you factor in the loan amount..whewwww

Yes, there are some tax advantages, but in 20 years, you're gonna have to do it all over again. I really want to live off the grid. Part of my house is underground, but they sure did an awful job on the upstairs..it's 94 degrees in here, with the fan and windows open.

~Big

Your numbers are a bit off.

20000 /(20 years X 12 months a year)= 83.33 dollars a month. Of course add a bit for interest, just say 100.00 /month. And solar panels do last longer than twenty years the output just lowers, which would mean you'd just need to add another set at some point.

Solar isn't bad with the tax incentives, I have no idea about geothermal it sounds like it would pay back rather quickly though under the right conditions.

(in reply to bignipples2share)

Post #: 24

RE: Geothermal Heat/cooling 4 homes!~??? - 8/25/2007 9:26:50 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

Here`s a great company,which has tons of energy-saving items,and many energy producing products and ideas.

http://www.gaiam.com/retail/SolarLiving?CMP=KNC-booyah&atlas=true&gcid=S18376x001&keyword=realgoods

and

http://www.solareco.com/index.cfm

When I 1st got interested(25 years ago) in alternate energy,green homes,etc,there were no windmill manufactures in the US.The only company producing workable homestead windmills,were in Australia.At that time,the only market that supported such a company was Australia.Not sure if there are any US windmill outfits today

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 25

RE: Geothermal Heat/cooling 4 homes!~??? - 8/26/2007 6:20:33 AM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bignipples2share

I've looked at alot of systems too, trying to convert everything over to get off the grid. Put in some solar panels, the g/t and it's looking like around 20,000.00 to get everything up and running. Consider the longest any of this lasts is 20-25years, that's 800.00 to 1,000.00 a month. There's no way I spend that kinda money each month. Then if you factor in the loan amount..whewwww

I haven't checked much into geothermal systems. That sort of undertaking is just too much. We have well water. It stays at a crisp 42 degrees a hundred foot down. Real nice when you want ice water without the ice.
So, you're talking serious drilling. Agriculture wells go down anywhere from 500 to 1000 feet. The cost is tremendous.
We went to the state fair yesterday..they had a few energy booths. I was surprised...having never seen any before at a fair. There were windmill manufacturers. We aren't allowed to do that here. You have to live in the country to have a windmill. We live in the city.
Although I have not given up all hope. Eventually I will have a windmill.
The corn furnace seemed like a decent cost efficient idea. The fair had some that actually looked like little fireplaces for less than 400 dollars. A few examples are here http://www.cornheat.com/
Problem with them is you have to use the ceiling fans, etc. You cannot hook them up to any sort of venting system. Cheap to run though.
Personally, I really like the idea of the shingles. By the end of the year I will have some on one of my houses. We go next week out of state to replace a roof on my other house. I'd like to feel the advantages of it.....so right now I'm debating whether or not I should throw some into that roof or leave it be for now.
I'm also considering solar panels to help heat my greenhouse.

(in reply to bignipples2share)

Post #: 26

RE: Geothermal Heat/cooling 4 homes!~??? - 8/26/2007 5:02:08 PM

Griswold

Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

ok- I like what I been Googling per this type of system. It sounds more doable then current solar/wind teck.

what the sites havent said- is if this system is doable on a city lot- with a house pre-existing.

does anyone use this type of system?
???

Pahunk.....

You have to drill down approx. 250 feet below the surface, with at least 3 copper pipes (one 'capture", one "recapture" and one "circulatory").

Then you need to set up a geothermal system in your house.

This typically involves a concrete floor with multiple circulating pipes within said concrete (there are other ways...this is one) and then a reverse system (one for air conditioning, the other for heat), capture "batteries" and so on.

We're talking...on the low side...$20,000.00 and the high side $200,000.00.

This is rarely (but occasionally) a cost effective system for an individual homeowner, rather...for a consortium of owners.

< Message edited by Griswold -- 8/26/2007 5:07:38 PM >

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 27

RE: Geothermal Heat/cooling 4 homes!~??? - 8/26/2007 7:32:21 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

ok- I like what I been Googling per this type of system. It sounds more doable then current solar/wind teck.

what the sites havent said- is if this system is doable on a city lot- with a house pre-existing.

does anyone use this type of system?
???

Pahunk.....

You have to drill down approx. 250 feet below the surface, with at least 3 copper pipes (one 'capture", one "recapture" and one "circulatory").

Then you need to set up a geothermal system in your house.

This typically involves a concrete floor with multiple circulating pipes within said concrete (there are other ways...this is one) and then a reverse system (one for air conditioning, the other for heat), capture "batteries" and so on.

We're talking...on the low side...$20,000.00 and the high side $200,000.00.

This is rarely (but occasionally) a cost effective system for an individual homeowner, rather...for a consortium of owners.

You have to drill down approx. 250 feet below the surface, with at least 3 copper pipes (one 'capture", one "recapture" and one "circulatory").

My understanding is that the depth of the well(s) depends on the amount of cubic feet the building has to heat/cool.The more cubic feet of air to heat/cool,the more liner feet of ground/water-contacted piping you need.
The system I`ve seen personally,was installed in an old brick structure.The home had over 6000 square feet,including an apartment over the garage and private theater w/ 20 a foot ceiling.The owner drilled 6 wells,before he had enough capacity,to cover his needs.He was a surgeon w/ three board certifications,and had the money.

The ground at about ten feet in is about 55% constant.It stays that way for thousands of feet deep under ground.In theory,you could have several shallow wells,or one huge deep one,in order to make it up to the energy requirements needed.

I have seen a system on TV(This Old House), where they just dug a huge ditch next the home, rolled out a pre-spun matrix of hoses along the bottom and back filled over the pipes.It`s a little cheaper the well drilling.

The very first G/T systems used lakes and ponds,where at the bottom,there is that same 55% temperature.The pipes were placed along the lake floor and led out to the house.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 8/26/2007 7:56:38 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Griswold)

Post #: 28

RE: Geothermal Heat/cooling 4 homes!~??? - 8/27/2007 7:39:56 AM

ChainsandFreedom

Posts: 222
Joined: 6/20/2007
Status: offline

quote:

we have 'choice" here= but no competing utility is in my area! so where is the choice?

i cant beleive people complaining about windwurbines being an eyesoar....not in a nation with overhead wires ever where you go. think of how many you go under every day.

......................................................................................................................................................................
PAs model energy policy is held up from becoming law. if enacted it would rival/raise the bar- per Californias policy. im told the lawyers are holding it up. hence no rebate for solar/wind etc.

PAHUNKBOY:

Its all confusing, but I'm pretty sure you do have a choice even without a competing utility. All suppliers are hooked up to the same "grid", so to speak-It's why so much of the NE lost power in summer '05, they were all connected. So a powerplant pumps electricity into the grid at a certain rate, and you the consumer can "buy" electricity from any producer at their rate provided other customers havent already bought an = # of volts to their supply-your just sucking voltage which isn't really geographically bounded on the grid, not a physical comodity.

windturbines=eyesoar if you're rich and want to act like you own the beautiful ocean/countryside veiw you enjoy. Thats why the normally progressive residents of Cape Cod voted down the turbines a few years back.

Personally, sitting atop the parking lot of Borgata in Atlantic City the other week, I found the wind turbines off in the distance to be beautiful, uplifting, hopeful, encouraging, inspiring. The vast feilds of them in Palm Springs seemed pretty surreal though.

dunno PA politics about holding up de-reg, good point about De-Reg being a convientiant way to ignore alternate energy.

But there's still alot of federal grants/tax rebates homeowners can cash in on.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 29

RE: Geothermal Heat/cooling 4 homes!~??? - 8/27/2007 7:54:24 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

I will regret to my dying days not buying a house in a community in Oregon that had geothermal heating. It was a beautiful stone house built in the Craftsman style, about 1,100sf within walking distance of the little downtown. It even had a basement that had been converted to an apartment along with a decent size commercial lot sort of landlocked behind it that was part of the deal. It was only $115k and I hadn't sold my house yet and just couldn't swing it.

Imagine having a big warehouse and workshop heated for free! ARGGGGG.

(in reply to ChainsandFreedom)

Post #: 30

RE: Geothermal Heat/cooling 4 homes!~??? - 8/27/2007 11:26:00 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

ok- I like what I been Googling per this type of system. It sounds more doable then current solar/wind teck.

what the sites havent said- is if this system is doable on a city lot- with a house pre-existing.

does anyone use this type of system?
???

Pahunk.....

You have to drill down approx. 250 feet below the surface, with at least 3 copper pipes (one 'capture", one "recapture" and one "circulatory").

Then you need to set up a geothermal system in your house.

This typically involves a concrete floor with multiple circulating pipes within said concrete (there are other ways...this is one) and then a reverse system (one for air conditioning, the other for heat), capture "batteries" and so on.

We're talking...on the low side...$20,000.00 and the high side $200,000.00.

This is rarely (but occasionally) a cost effective system for an individual homeowner, rather...for a consortium of owners.

this would be good in a shared feature of say a cull-de-sac.

(in reply to Griswold)

Post #: 31

RE: Geothermal Heat/cooling 4 homes!~??? - 8/27/2007 11:32:06 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

quote:

ORIGINAL: bignipples2share

I've looked at alot of systems too, trying to convert everything over to get off the grid. Put in some solar panels, the g/t and it's looking like around 20,000.00 to get everything up and running. Consider the longest any of this lasts is 20-25years, that's 800.00 to 1,000.00 a month. There's no way I spend that kinda money each month. Then if you factor in the loan amount..whewwww

I haven't checked much into geothermal systems. That sort of undertaking is just too much. We have well water. It stays at a crisp 42 degrees a hundred foot down. Real nice when you want ice water without the ice.
So, you're talking serious drilling. Agriculture wells go down anywhere from 500 to 1000 feet. The cost is tremendous.
We went to the state fair yesterday..they had a few energy booths. I was surprised...having never seen any before at a fair. There were windmill manufacturers. We aren't allowed to do that here. You have to live in the country to have a windmill. We live in the city.
Although I have not given up all hope. Eventually I will have a windmill.
The corn furnace seemed like a decent cost efficient idea. The fair had some that actually looked like little fireplaces for less than 400 dollars. A few examples are here http://www.cornheat.com/
Problem with them is you have to use the ceiling fans, etc. You cannot hook them up to any sort of venting system. Cheap to run though.
Personally, I really like the idea of the shingles. By the end of the year I will have some on one of my houses. We go next week out of state to replace a roof on my other house. I'd like to feel the advantages of it.....so right now I'm debating whether or not I should throw some into that roof or leave it be for now.
I'm also considering solar panels to help heat my greenhouse.

Gloria, this really pisses me off! You and I have talked about windmill zoning. How can a people support their troops and then refuse so many alternative energy "zoning" items! evening our rinkydink area newspaper did an editorial on this aimed at all zoning lawmakers. they want it wrote INTO the law that such is ALLOWED. i cant think of of better way to be a good global citizen and to vote with ones feet over the mockery of democracy that has ensued the past 7 years!

as i write this- the brightest minds in the world and indeed US universities are exploring the next big step. I promise you this!

the question is- will there results be stiffled????

(in reply to sub4hire)

Post #: 32

RE: Geothermal Heat/cooling 4 homes!~??? - 8/27/2007 1:27:53 PM

Archer

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

For direct heating/ cooling it's likely a great thing, however one thing that is a drawback that is kinda a major one for many folks.
When used as a steam generating source for electricity there is a resultant increase in sysmic activity.
Since the easiest places to reach hard hot rock is around currently active sysmic areas (shallowest drilling), it would seem that the safest place to do that would be at places where the drilling is toughest. BTW for geothermal electrical production you have to go housands of feet deep in almost all locations.

< Message edited by Archer -- 8/27/2007 1:30:49 PM >

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 33

RE: Geothermal Heat/cooling 4 homes!~??? - 8/27/2007 1:35:49 PM

Archer

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

Solar I just caught a show on the latest improvement and it sounds seriously promising.
Non chip photo cells, printed on plastic with special inks, and they are testing at seriously efficient leves from what I saw.
Manufacturing process will eat this up. My first thought when I saw this was Solar Power Window tint for sky scrapers.
Won't be too long now and Solar will indeed be viable.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 34

RE: Geothermal Heat/cooling 4 homes!~??? - 8/27/2007 3:07:32 PM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

BTW for geothermal electrical production you have to go housands of feet deep in almost all locations.

I hadn't done any research however I thought that may be the case. That's why I said agricultural wells had to go from 500-1000 foot deep. At 1000 feet it is very chilly water still.
I imagine not much over freezing during the winter, the time when you least need air conditioning.

PA nobody, well I shouldn't say nobody but no one I have come across is against Solar Energy.
It's getting cheaper. By the way...the stats I learned this past weekend is a whopping 20,000 homes in the entire US are now using solar energy. So, we've got a long way to go.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 35

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