honourable actions

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philosophy -> honourable actions (8/24/2007 8:25:58 AM)
......a while ago this happened... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6449227.stm ......this morning this is reported..... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6962071.stm ....what are the odds that the US military will do the honourable thing this time and actually cooperate with the inevitable investigation, or will they lie again in an attempt to duck blame?

Owner59 -> RE: honourable actions (8/24/2007 8:34:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy ......a while ago this happened... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6449227.stm ......this morning this is reported..... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6962071.stm ....what are the odds that the US military will do the honourable thing this time and actually cooperate with the inevitable investigation, or will they lie again in an attempt to duck blame? The odds? thin....

Rule -> RE: honourable actions (8/24/2007 8:41:44 AM)
Perhaps the victims were a liability. Friendly fire is an excellent method to 'accidentally' get rid of liabilities.

CuriousLord -> RE: honourable actions (8/24/2007 8:49:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule Perhaps the victims were a liability. Friendly fire is an excellent method to 'accidentally' get rid of liabilities. Which I'm sure the two injured soldiers are decrying. It's all one big conspiracy these days, after all.

mnottertail -> RE: honourable actions (8/24/2007 8:51:51 AM)
There are more deaths due to friendly fire and other 'friendly' causes than there are people killed on purpose in war. Ron

CuriousLord -> RE: honourable actions (8/24/2007 8:55:16 AM)
Say, you have two best friends. You care for both with a strong, brotherly bond. One night, these two go out to a bar together. The driver gets a bit more drunk than he should, and they have an accident on the way back. Only the passenger is killed- one of those accidents where one side of the vechile really gets it, but the other side is relatively intact. The next morning, an officer knocks on your door. You heard them talking about going to the bar, and after hearing the officer's story, you can pretty much guess what happened. Do you tell the officer everything? Or do you just be quiet- accepting the tradgety, but not wanting to make it worse for the surviver? These men in the services- I believe they often share such a brotherly bond. Even the ones who don't know eachother first hand. Unless they believe the pilot's intent to be malicious, I find it doubtful that they do much to make it worse for him.

CuriousLord -> RE: honourable actions (8/24/2007 8:59:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail There are more deaths due to friendly fire and other 'friendly' causes than there are people killed on purpose in war. Going off this, perhaps we should give Iran/North Korea a wealth of tactical nukes, provided that they spend a year on their own soil "practicing" with them first? Slightly less safety features on the explosive mechanisms than normal (outside of a GPS-based device that causes the explosive to be instantly activated when it either leaves Iranian/North Korean political boundries or the device is removed)?

philosophy -> RE: honourable actions (8/24/2007 8:59:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Say, you have two best friends. You care for both with a strong, brotherly bond. One night, these two go out to a bar together. The driver gets a bit more drunk than he should, and they have an accident on the way back. Only the passenger is killed- one of those accidents where one side of the vechile really gets it, but the other side is relatively intact. The next morning, an officer knocks on your door. You heard them talking about going to the bar, and after hearing the officer's story, you can pretty much guess what happened. Do you tell the officer everything? Or do you just be quiet- accepting the tradgety, but not wanting to make it worse for the surviver?....... ....and what do you do if a few months later he does it again? Kills another passenger? Still keep quiet? Or is there an issue that desperately needs adressing but wont if you keep adopting the ostrich position (head in the sand)..........

CuriousLord -> RE: honourable actions (8/24/2007 9:09:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy ....and what do you do if a few months later he does it again? Kills another passenger? Still keep quiet? Or is there an issue that desperately needs adressing but wont if you keep adopting the ostrich position (head in the sand).......... I suppose you can ask yourself this. What would you do if your friend did it again? As far as friendly fire's concerned, I'm under the impression that individual soldiers do not tend to make this mistake more than once. I somehow doubt this soldier will see combat operations again, regardless of the relative lack of testimony. As for the other soldiers? Well, if after this story- in which you lost a close friend due to an entirely preventable accident- wouldn't you think twice before driving drunk, even though you didn't have anything to do with this particular instance? I believe the other soldiers will be more sober and the leadership aware. I believe they're just trying to avoid getting this guy further in the hole, but not that they're entirely ignoring the issue. PS- Just using "you" to make it easier for the analogy to be considered. Nothing personal is met in any way at any point and my apologies if it's in any way unpleasant. (Just making this note because I feel odd using analogies that ask one to put himself into different shoes.) (Yeah, I worry about silly things when I'm tired.)

philosophy -> RE: honourable actions (8/24/2007 9:20:24 AM)
..the thing is, the relatives of those killed in the first link were denied the truth of what happened by the US military.....only an assiduous coroner dragged the truth out of them. Now we have another incident along similar lines. What i'm curious about is to what extent such cover ups are seen as justified. In the first incident it wasn't the pilots friends who did the covering up, it was the pentagon. Let's reverse the situation......UK pilots acidently kill US soldiers on the ground, UK military chiefs attempt to cover up who was actually to blame for the incident. Would such a thing be acceptable to Americans? If not, then surely it is time for the US military to do the honourable thing and tell the whole truth........the alternative is to accept hypocrisy as a normal part of US military operations.......and that would, in the long term, not serve US interests.

farglebargle -> RE: honourable actions (8/24/2007 9:22:07 AM)
Who was driving the F-15's? Navy? I don't think the army run their own air-suuport. Marines do. Anyway, my point is: I fucking hate the Air Force. "We'll fly over them, and drop a really big bomb on them, and they'll just give up." is pretty much a disproven hypothesis.

kittinSol -> RE: honourable actions (8/24/2007 9:27:24 AM)
Ron's correct. And "friendly fire" is a horrible oxymoron.

mnottertail -> RE: honourable actions (8/24/2007 9:56:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail There are more deaths due to friendly fire and other 'friendly' causes than there are people killed on purpose in war. Going off this, perhaps we should give Iran/North Korea a wealth of tactical nukes, provided that they spend a year on their own soil "practicing" with them first? Slightly less safety features on the explosive mechanisms than normal (outside of a GPS-based device that causes the explosive to be instantly activated when it either leaves Iranian/North Korean political boundries or the device is removed)? They appear to be riding an olympic class bobsled straight to hell on their own with their good buddy, their good pal, their friend, their colleague; China, and probably don't need any more help from us to get themselves all fucked up. Were they to ask nicely; however, then that is another kettle of fish. Ron Ron

FullCircle -> RE: honourable actions (8/24/2007 4:55:12 PM)
From what I remember about this the US pilots thought luminous orange panels on the British Convoy used to signify allied forces were in fact luminous orange rockets. You know those ones you want your enemy to see coming in the dark. The pilots confirmed their targets with a controller that ok’d it. This is if anything is a failure of technology. If you are an insurgent all you need to do it seems is drive around in a car with an orange panel on the roof. Surely in this age of modern warfare there should be more reliable digital beacons used?

Politesub53 -> RE: honourable actions (8/24/2007 5:15:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: Rule Perhaps the victims were a liability. Friendly fire is an excellent method to 'accidentally' get rid of liabilities. Which I'm sure the two injured soldiers are decrying. It's all one big conspiracy these days, after all. Dont forget the three dead guys. Their families will just want some answers, although yet again i doubt they will get any.

mnottertail -> RE: honourable actions (8/24/2007 5:28:24 PM)
Hey, it is like the fuckin guys in the tank out of line to go woofin a blunt, some eager warrant officers in the helicopters took them further off line, all kinda shit happens...anyone who thinks there are three here and there that happens to, are simply fools. Your goddamn government is making war on terrorism and can't even provide the hospitalization for these fuckwads they were promised. What the fuck do they care about answering questions for some wailing and hysterical gash? The fuckin' clowns got tipped over, send mom a silver star. End of fuckin joke. lets get some more guys in there to fill the fuckin hole, we are fighting for democracy here. You bic? Ron

Politesub53 -> RE: honourable actions (8/24/2007 5:50:11 PM)
Ron your right....we had specialist military hospitals that were closed down to save money. The injured troops have been treated like shit, as they have been in most wars. Not many people here have ever bought that " fighting for democracy " bullshit. That said, people have a right to know what happened. The wailing and hysterical gash as you succintly put it, may also have to raise the children. And dont call them my governement......i didnt vote for the tossers [;)]

mnottertail -> RE: honourable actions (8/24/2007 5:55:57 PM)
well, since the military is waivering people with emotional problems to make their quota so the administration can crow that the eligible youth are crowding to sign up for america, then kicking their ass out with no medical care because they were fuckin flaky in the first place (that thread is floating around here) it seems that we should be more form than substance. End of another joke. Ron Firmhand can explain this tho, when he comes around. I am sure I am wrong. And he doesnt use words like fuck to explain it.

Politesub53 -> RE: honourable actions (8/24/2007 6:03:08 PM)
I thought you were talking about the treatment the UK soldiers were getting over here. So now its two governments not giving a shit about the injured. Aint life grand. I can deal with fuck....it`s a good old Anglo Saxon word. [;)]

Bobkgin -> RE: honourable actions (8/25/2007 2:46:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy ......a while ago this happened... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6449227.stm ......this morning this is reported..... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6962071.stm ....what are the odds that the US military will do the honourable thing this time and actually cooperate with the inevitable investigation, or will they lie again in an attempt to duck blame? You know, the same thing happened to the Canadian forces a couple of years back. Damn poor Air Control. I'd like to see how many casualties are the result of friendly fire and how many are from the Taliban, 'cause I think we've (Canada) have lost more to the American flyboys than to the Taliban. I just can't wait to toss out our Tories and get back to a Left-Lib government. The war is -totally- unpopular here. I mean really, we went in to get Bin Laden and he's not even in Afghanistan anymore. Year after year goes by and what are we doing other than propping up a puppet government that will never survive our departure (just ask the Soviets). Meanwhile Bin Laden is shacked up in Pakistan, our so-called ally (who happen to have nukes pointed at the largest democracy in the world: India). Anything to keep the military-industrial complex fed, I suppose. [:@]

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