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RE: Pleasure through comparison. - 8/18/2007 8:40:56 PM

slaveluci

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
The jist is that we can only measure and realise our happiness by those around us who are less happy. That where equality is and differences do not exist, happiness can not exist

In 1927 in "Desiderata," Max Ehrmann said this: "If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself." I have always agreed with this statement. If my happiness depends on those around me, I'm in big trouble.

quote:

It goes on to state that we should not comfort those who suffer because we then allow them a monent of happiness which in turn lessens our happiness and removes the joy of comparison. It is preferred we aggravate their condition and therefore heighten our pleasure

I couldn't disagree more here. It will never lessen my own happiness to comfort another who is suffering. The "joy" of comparison pales next to the joy of doing good for others. I loved BSB's answer as she really summed up my feelings as well. Good question, missturbation

.............luci

< Message edited by slaveluci -- 8/18/2007 8:41:44 PM >

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RE: Pleasure through comparison. - 8/18/2007 9:01:13 PM

SimplyMichael

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Consider this, if we measure ourselves by the state of others, we place more importance on them than us. Take three people, all happy, and put them in a room, do they suddenly become miserable because there is nobody to be better than? Or conversely, put three people who's glasses are always half full and there will be no joy in that room.

I do not measure my happiness by any one's yardstick but my own. I know what I want and whether others have more or less it doesn't affect the quality of my happiness although I would be happier in a sea of other people's joy than it a world full misery other than mine.

That theory was written by and for the wealthy to assuage their guilt for living off the sweat and misery of others.

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RE: Pleasure through comparison. - 8/19/2007 12:51:56 AM

luckydog1

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It seems you really need a working definition of happiness to have this discussion. Several different forms of it have been refered to on this thread, some seem to meet the criteria of the theory in question, others don't. "happiness" is such a broad word. I would not apply the thoery to my BDSM play. Sadism makes my willie get hard, and my adrenile to pump, and seems to have similar effects on the ladies I play with, it's not based on anyone else suffering or being worse off. I would be lying though if I said that looks from single guys while going to a munch with a beautiful sub on my arm didn't give me a feeling of pride and that is pleasurable.

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RE: Pleasure through comparison. - 8/20/2007 2:44:33 AM

came4U

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quote:

It is preferred we aggravate their condition and therefore heighten our pleasure.

hmmmm so, attending my family picnic is a good idea afterall. otay.

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RE: Pleasure through comparison. - 8/20/2007 5:32:19 AM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

quote:

It is preferred we aggravate their condition and therefore heighten our pleasure.

hmmmm so, attending my family picnic is a good idea afterall. otay.

In light of this exchange, it would seem rather mandatory, would it not?

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RE: Pleasure through comparison. - 8/20/2007 6:20:19 AM

came4U

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yes, a family of sadists, bringing salad bowls and masochists. yep, sounds like a good plan lol.

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RE: Pleasure through comparison. - 8/20/2007 8:26:11 AM

philosophy

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FR

.....none of our senses are absolute measuring devices, they measure differences in stimuli......so it is not far fetched for happiness to be derived from comparisons. However to assume that the best comparator is just the opposite of happiness in others seems simplistic. We are making constant subconscious comparisons of our entire environment and our memories. Making our drives and thought processes as chaotic as anything else in the universe..........

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RE: Pleasure through comparison. - 8/20/2007 12:30:44 PM

missturbation

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My apologies for appearing to abandon my own thread but i've been busy working

UR2Bador4ed - Though it may remove us from the joy of comparison which I believe exists. Would not the joy of compassion be it's equal?
Technically no as compassion is a feeling and comparison is not. The joy of compassion is comparable to happiness from others suffering and yes i would feel more joy from the first.

SugarMyChurro - I think you need to consider Pierre Klossowski in terms of the significant art and philosophical movements of his times. Dada and surrealism must be factored in while also giving particular attention to Georges Bataille's notions of "transgression
I'm not sure whether to ask you not to patronise me here or to just say thank you lol. Considering i am studying all that is De Sade and philosophy and theory of the time i think i might just have taken into account that it is dated.
At the end of the day, most pleasure is deeply internal for all individuals alike. De Sade himself wrote much of his most famous material while in the Bastille, so he was absolutely in the deepest hole of his own misery when writing his most sublime texts.
I'm aware most of his works were written whilst imprisoned. I would however beg to differ that his internments were the most miserable times of his life. However this isnt a De Sade history topic.
The Klossowski idea is almost a throw away; but it might lead toward some engaging imagery and thoughts while you entertain the idea as being true and correct. That's the sole purpose of some ideas - momentary illumination based on a seemingly plausible idea that disappears entirely under a harsher light and much closer scrutiny.
I don't believe that it is a throw away. I know people that find happiness from others misery and basically that is what we are talking about here. The idea in his theory does not dissappear but the attempt at justifying or reasoning it out does not hold too well i agree.

Joseff - Same old "there can't be good without evil, can't be light without dark" BS. Quite frankly, I don't have to taste dirt to know chocolate tastes good.
Look a little deeper.

BossyShoeBitch - I'll take the opposing viewpoint. When I see people that are unhappy or are facing tough obstacles and I help them it makes me happy inside knowing I've helped other human beings.
Every ying has to have its yang - thank you.

SimplyMichael - That theory was written by and for the wealthy to assuage their guilt for living off the sweat and misery of others.
Actually its a theory written to try and explain why De Sades 'nature as the one true ruler of man' philosophy doesn't quite work. It refers more to the libertine than the rich man or the poor.

Consider this, if we measure ourselves by the state of others, we place more importance on them than us.
By the theory that follows on from the joy of comparison anyone who gains joy by someone elses sadness actually lowers themself to the status of nothing. The jist is that to treat someone so despicably, to torture them and gain great happiness from their suffering we lower them to a status of nothing. If they are nothing then the acts we are commiting against them are nothing and in turn makes our happiness and ourselves nothing.

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RE: Pleasure through comparison. - 8/20/2007 5:53:59 PM

theq

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
The jist is that we can only measure and realise our happiness by those around us who are less happy. That where equality is and differences do not exist, happiness can not exist.
It goes on to state that we should not comfort those who suffer because we then allow them a monent of happiness which in turn lessens our happiness and removes the joy of comparison. It is preferred we aggravate their condition and therefore heighten our pleasure.

Whoa....deep and kind of twisted. I have a good buddy at work that I play the stock market with. Admittedly, when he has a bad day (he's had soooooooooo many good ones!) I make a bit of a chuckle of it in front of him...it's all in good humor....he knows he can't have good days every day. A bit twisted of me, I suppose? I think the Germans call it schadenfreude (different than Sadistic...one causes the misery of others....while the other merely takes pleasure in it)

At any rate...when he has a number of bad days in a row and begins falling into negative positions...I do empathize with him. A bit of schadenfreude may be a way to get a quick chuckle and even lighten them up a bit....but to continue through repeated bad days....is just....cruel...even beyond me!

Maybe I'm a wimp?

Q

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RE: Pleasure through comparison. - 8/20/2007 6:02:47 PM

SusanofO

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This is also a thought expressed in a book I just read about sociopathic behavior (titled "The Sociopath Next Door" by Martha Stout, Ph.D.). A true non-consensual Sadist, according to this book, will usually only gain pleasure from having a feeling of "winning" in a relationship interaction. For them, totallly dominating another is the name of the game.

They don't really have much capacity for empathy or true feeling for other people, so they evaluate their interactions with people based on "who wins" or "who loses" - it doesn't surprise me tha DeSade's writings contain this idea - he was a Sadist.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/20/2007 6:04:15 PM >

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RE: Pleasure through comparison. - 8/20/2007 6:04:41 PM

CuriousLord

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I'm not so sure it's exactly pleasure through being compared to others. Rather, I think people like to know that they're doing well with what they're given. To know that they're making the best of life for themselves- that things are working. (Which the body "rewards" with happiness.) If a person isn't doing so well with life, then they're "punished" with depression- which makes them more liable to change habits. The body isn't seeking happiness so much as it is using happiness to promote the things it seeks.

Now, if one comes to believe that they are not doing well with their current sets of abilities and such? Depression. Time to change. If they see others not doing as well on the par, then they might reason that they're doing the right things. Happiness. Stick with what's going on.

It's just the body operating.

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RE: Pleasure through comparison. - 8/20/2007 6:13:15 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

In my De Sade studies (yep im still studying and writing) i have come across the essay 'nature as destructive priniciple' by Pierre Klossowski. There are many many theories in it but one that is intriguing me is the 'pleasure through comparison'.
The jist is that we can only measure and realise our happiness by those around us who are less happy. That where equality is and differences do not exist, happiness can not exist.
It goes on to state that we should not comfort those who suffer because we then allow them a monent of happiness which in turn lessens our happiness and removes the joy of comparison. It is preferred we aggravate their condition and therefore heighten our pleasure.

I have many, many thoughts on this but am curious to hear what others think about it.

i would disagree with most of this.

Personal pleasure can be directly and most accurately compared to personal displeasure.

I do agree with the concept that one needs contrast to be capable of differentiating and quantifying pleasure and displeasure.

No one else is needed for that process and lifes experience will teach and bring one to its realization.

I wont take it this beyond this point and get involved in factors of consderation for either as its as varied as the stars.

DeSade, well franlky he is a few screws short of a full box but he is a pretty good sadist nonetheless.

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RE: Pleasure through comparison. - 8/21/2007 6:15:43 PM

UR2Badored

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.

< Message edited by UR2Badored -- 8/21/2007 6:48:51 PM >

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