Pleasure through comparison. (Full Version)

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missturbation -> Pleasure through comparison. (8/18/2007 11:01:42 AM)

In my De Sade studies (yep im still studying and writing) i have come across the essay 'nature as destructive priniciple' by Pierre Klossowski. There are many many theories in it but one that is intriguing me is the 'pleasure through comparison'. 
The jist is that we can only measure and realise our happiness by those around us who are less happy. That where equality is and differences do not exist, happiness can not exist.
It goes on to state that we should not comfort those who suffer because we then allow them a monent of happiness which in turn lessens our happiness and removes the joy of comparison. It is preferred we aggravate their condition and therefore heighten our pleasure.
 
I have many, many thoughts on this but am curious to hear what others think about it.



Level -> RE: Pleasure through comparison. (8/18/2007 11:09:38 AM)

I'm sure some of that exists in the world, but it certainly isn't universal, nor constant. Proof being, I feel happy when I'm alone, there is no comparison going on.



missturbation -> RE: Pleasure through comparison. (8/18/2007 11:14:32 AM)

Do you not think though that some of that happiness you feel when alone can be credited to external factors? Such as your job is going well? Your relationship is blooming etc?
Or even you got the promotion at work and your colleague didnt? You got the girl and the other potential beau didnt?



FangsNfeet -> RE: Pleasure through comparison. (8/18/2007 11:20:26 AM)

Jerry Springer is popular for a reason. When we watch E or read about a celebrity, what makes us more interested in there faults and problems versus there success? What makes news about Brittney Spears and Lindsy Lohan more exciting than a bill that will change your life being passed on CSPAN?

The bottom line is that whenever depressed, down in the dumps, or upset about a situation, it's human nature to cheer your spirits by pointing a finger saying "Atleast I'm not that person."

You'll be supprised by the difficulty level of not being able to find someone worse off than you. Most people feel good about there accomplishments because there achivement is something not everyone has been able to do. That's where greatness comes into play.



Level -> RE: Pleasure through comparison. (8/18/2007 11:21:35 AM)

Nope, I'm just a happy guy, dammit. [:D]
 
Seriously, it can be affected by external factors, but speaking for myself, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes I just feel at peace, and am happy.



Babybass -> RE: Pleasure through comparison. (8/18/2007 11:46:18 AM)

No matter how bad life is there is always someone worse off than you - their situation is worse or their loss is worse - knowing this does not make me happier. It maybe makes me appreciate my life more because i realise things could be a lot worse.

By this theory of 'pleasure by comparrison' everyone would be happy if they only compared themselves to those that are worse off than them. And a lot of very successful people are extremely unhappy. 

Maybe we measure our happiness by our past unhappiness. We cannot know we are happy if we have never been unhappy - they do not exist without eachother.



missturbation -> RE: Pleasure through comparison. (8/18/2007 12:04:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Babybass 

Maybe we measure our happiness by our past unhappiness. We cannot know we are happy if we have never been unhappy - they do not exist without eachother.


I missed this point out intentionally. I think you are 100% right, we can only measure happiness or suffering by what we have felt before. We need to feel something to understand it better and measure it.
To quote from the essay 'its quite like the situation of the man who doesn't appreciate the price of good health until he has been ill'.
 
To move it on a little a sadist gains pleasure from the pain he inflicts on his sub / slave etc. If inflicting pain makes him happy what is he/she measuring the happiness against? Does he/she need to have felt the pain to appreciate and measure the happiness he/ she derives from it?Or is the happiness just measured by the suffering they feel when unable to inflict pain?



Babybass -> RE: Pleasure through comparison. (8/18/2007 12:12:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

[To move it on a little a sadist gains pleasure from the pain he inflicts on his sub / slave etc. If inflicting pain makes him happy what is he/she measuring the happiness against? Does he/she need to have felt the pain to appreciate and measure the happiness he/ she derives from it?Or is the happiness just measured by the suffering they feel when unable to inflict pain?


I think that the happiness is measured by the suffering they feel when unable to inflict pain. They are reacting not to the absence of pain in themselves but to the act of inflicting pain. I think the source of the happiness needs to be understood/isolated in order to discover what the opposite suffering would be.
If they were reacting to the pain that they had themselves experienced then their happiness would simply be to be without pain.  



missturbation -> RE: Pleasure through comparison. (8/18/2007 12:21:46 PM)

Ok but a sadist who inflicts pain on an unwilling victim. Unless he knows just how much pain he is inflicting surely he cannot derive the pleasure equal to his victims suffering? He does not know how much something hurts unless it has been done to him.
The Sir / Master who is inflicting punishment on his sub / slave surely he needs to know just how it makes his sub / slave feel to gain anything from it?
I don't think i came across to clearly in my last post as i didnt mean the sadist who loves to inflict pain and the sub who loves to recieve it as the comparisons cannot be made as they both feel happiness. My apologies.



Babybass -> RE: Pleasure through comparison. (8/18/2007 12:33:05 PM)

Hmmm - you make a good point. I do not think that the pleasure can be equal if s/he does not know how much pain s/he is inflicting. In order to experience the same amount of pleasure as the victim experiences in pain then s/he has to have felt that pain.
I do think however that the pleasure is derived more from the feeling of power, the actual process of inflicting the pain and the also fear of the victim - so i do not think that in reality it would ever be an equal pleasure to the pain.
So I come back to my original assessment that the motivation behind the pleasure needs to be understood before you can assess what the opposite and equal pain would be.   



UR2Badored -> RE: Pleasure through comparison. (8/18/2007 12:35:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

It goes on to state that we should not comfort those who suffer because we then allow them a monent of happiness which in turn lessens our happiness and removes the joy of comparison. It is preferred we aggravate their condition and therefore heighten our pleasure.


Though it may remove us from the joy of comparison which I believe exists.  Would not the joy of compassion be it's equal?



SugarMyChurro -> RE: Pleasure through comparison. (8/18/2007 12:40:35 PM)

I think you need to consider Pierre Klossowski in terms of the significant art and philosophical movements of his times. Dada and surrealism must be factored in while also giving particular attention to Georges Bataille's notions of "transgression."

At the end of the day, most pleasure is deeply internal for all individuals alike. De Sade himself wrote much of his most famous material while in the Bastille, so he was absolutely in the deepest hole of his own misery when writing his most sublime texts.

The Klossowski idea is almost a throw away; but it might lead toward some engaging imagery and thoughts while you entertain the idea as being true and correct. That's the sole purpose of some ideas - momentary illumination based on a seemingly plausible idea that disappears entirely under a harsher light and much closer scrutiny.

But for that one moment - Wow!



Joseff -> RE: Pleasure through comparison. (8/18/2007 1:26:52 PM)

Same old "there can't be good without evil, can't be light without dark" BS. Quite frankly, I don't have to taste dirt to know chocolate tastes good.
Joseff



Arpig -> RE: Pleasure through comparison. (8/18/2007 2:49:03 PM)

quote:

Does he/she need to have felt the pain to appreciate and measure the happiness he/ she derives from it?Or is the happiness just measured by the suffering they feel when unable to inflict pain?

neither, being unable to inflict pain in no way causes me suffering, and I have never felt the sort of pain I like to inflict. The happiness is derived from the sensual pleasure I derive from inflicting pain



seeksfemslave -> RE: Pleasure through comparison. (8/18/2007 3:18:54 PM)

Have nothing to add other than to say how amazing this off topic section is.
By amazing I mean how it attracts people who have given thought to all kinds of things.
Luv it !



BossyShoeBitch -> RE: Pleasure through comparison. (8/18/2007 3:33:33 PM)

I'll take the opposing viewpoint.  When I see people that are unhappy or are facing tough obstacles and I help them it makes me happy inside knowing I've helped other human beings.
I volunteer a very large amount of time to help those less fortunate than myself.  I give things away. I donate money. I inconvenience myself to help friends (move my schedule around, jump through hoops, etc.)
I do this because it makes me feel good.  In turn, I like to think I have earned some pretty good karma.



Politesub53 -> RE: Pleasure through comparison. (8/18/2007 3:50:58 PM)

Some things you know will hurt you through social conditioning. We all know fire burns, yet not everyone has been unfortunate to be burnt. It may be that the joy in giving pain is exactly that, the actual degree the submissive is feeling is irrelevant. The dominant need not know how much pain the submissive feels, the indicators may be aural or visual.

One need not have been hit to know when someone screams or cries out, that its painful. Also the joy may come from the subconscious and not the conscious feelings.
[;)]



mnottertail -> RE: Pleasure through comparison. (8/18/2007 4:05:47 PM)

Perhaps thru comparison and contrast....to compare and contrast a Raphael to a Rodin, to know that there is more, and to touch it, if even through the mirror, darkly.

Beats the shit outta me. 



sophia37 -> RE: Pleasure through comparison. (8/18/2007 7:12:55 PM)

No no. Its the ability to see and be grateful for what you have. Thats comparison happiness. BUT I totally disagree that we should not comfort others who suffer. Not only should we comfort we should council.

On the other hand Ive been known to jump for joy when someone whos been a rotten bastard finally gets the come-uppance. So I can be happy for others unhappiness as well i guess.



ownedgirlie -> RE: Pleasure through comparison. (8/18/2007 8:04:08 PM)

I tend to compare myself to myself, rather than others.  My happiness comes from within, as does my pain and unhappiness, as does my fulfillment, as does my joy, as does my hope.  If I'm to be happy, I must be true to myself, rather than true to what is right for somebody else. 

In other words My spirit soars with its own wings, on its own path.

I do feel that some people find happiness in comparisons.  It is my opinion that those who do, tend to not know themselves well, and the depth of that happiness is not what it could be.



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