RE: Spelling and online... (Full Version)

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FullCircle -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/17/2007 6:03:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

If people didn’t misspell words and make their own up English would become as limited as French and not evolve. Shakespeare couldn’t spell either by our standards.


I am sure that if Shakespeare were alive today, he would have a high standard when it comes to spelling. Your problem is you have no standards. Using your logic, Ebonics is the epitome of communication.

 
My point is that Shakespeare set his own standards, he didn't look to anyone for approval. I have standards but I know that Genius isn’t limited to those that know how to spell correctly.



sexyred1 -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/17/2007 6:09:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Trust me, there're much better things to be learning out there than memorizing spelling.


Actually, I disagree. Communication via writing is a lost art in our society. I see horrendous spelling and grammatical errors in business correspondence on a daily basis. It is often the first impression you get when trying to conduct business or meeting a potential someone.

Some people learned to spell the correct way and some learned phonetically. The latter is a problem, since many did not learn the proper way.

I am not too fond of internet spelling either, U R 4, etc. is just lazy.



kittinSol -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/17/2007 6:23:27 PM)

English is useful for the purpose of conveying pragmatic points. I think it's universally used because its tenses are simple and straightforward. It's therefore very useful for commerce and exchange.

On the other hand, French is far too circumvoluted and complex for this and it's not a mercantile language at all.

What makes a language rich, all in all, is its everyday use. From what I have experienced, in the English speaking world, the average individual's vocabulary seems to be limited to about 1000 words [:D]. I'm not sure it is the same in francophone countries.



BruisedHick -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/17/2007 6:40:04 PM)

Ummmmmmmmm....  try conjugating any verb in English vs. French.

Almost anyone who has had to learn it as a second language considers it one of the hardest to learn, because of our lack of rules, or ignoring of the ones we have.

We have become the language of commerce because 3 of the G8 are English speaking, and making it the world's biggest language, economically. 

Trade between GB, CA, and US is all in English, giving them immense power to expect others to learn their fucked up language.



FullCircle -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/17/2007 6:40:15 PM)

I’m not saying one language is better than the other and I think the widespread use of English has more to do with historic reasons rather than anything else. The point I was making in all this is that these languages are all derived from Latin. Some have been controlled whilst others have been added to and changed radically. If we all follow the rules no new words came about because we reject them as being wrong. Am I to say to an American that Jewellery isn’t spelt Jewelry, colour isn’t spelt color, centre isn’t spelt center and programme isn’t spelt program. At some point changes occurred and we must accept that changes will occur again.  



BruisedHick -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/17/2007 6:45:39 PM)

Yeah, but English aint a romantic language.  It's germanic.



Aswad -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/17/2007 7:00:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IcySub

I point out a person's spelling errors regardless if they don't mind it.


I'll be as polite as to ask you whether you mind if I point out your other errors, then?

quote:


A spell checker isn't hard to obtain online so there's no excuse for incorrect spelling.


A spell checker is not a solution. I'm not a native speaker, and will say that English has the most confusing phonetics and spelling that I have ever encountered, including some different alphabets. Considering this, and the number of words that have very different meanings but almost identical spellings (especially to a non-native speaker), the spell checker will usually make things worse for anyone who isn't a native speaker.

Also, some people are dyslexic. It doesn't mean their mind is compromised. Only that their ability to spell is. To eliminate them on the background of that would be like if I had refused to read your post because you're black. Note that dyslexia is not quite as easy to correct for as regular misspellings. It took years of research at the foremost linguistics research centre here in Norway to make a program that can correct dyslexic misspelling properly, and our language is a heck of a lot simpler (grammatically and phonetically more regular and simpler; i.e. objectively simpler).

quote:


If I come across a dom's (where english is their first language) profile that has atrocious misspellings, I pass them up. If they can't spell, what good are they to me?


Are you looking for a dom, someone to type for you, or a proofreader?



Aswad -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/17/2007 7:08:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Trust me, there're much better things to be learning out there than memorizing spelling.


Actually, I disagree.


WTF? You are actually saying here that there are no better things to spend time on than spelling.

Either that, or your linguistics need a touch-up at a quite different level than spelling.

quote:


Communication via writing is a lost art in our society.


Seems we're all communicating quite well here, despite the occasional spelling and grammar errors.

As for art, not every artist prefers the same medium.

quote:


I see horrendous spelling and grammatical errors in business correspondence on a daily basis. It is often the first impression you get when trying to conduct business or meeting a potential someone.


In business, that is quite frequently because people are being lax, in my experience.

Which is, obviously, quite different from an honest mistake, dyslexia or non-nativity.

quote:


I am not too fond of internet spelling either, U R 4, etc. is just lazy.


That's not a spelling error, but an argot.
And I detest it with quite a passion.
Not that I usually comment on it.



Aswad -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/17/2007 7:13:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

English is useful for the purpose of conveying pragmatic points.


How so?

quote:


I think it's universally used because its tenses are simple and straightforward.


Err... no.

It's tenses are difficult and convoluted.

quote:


It's therefore very useful for commerce and exchange.


No, its ubiquity makes it useful for commerce and exchange.

Cantonese will probably displace it in time, or a polyglot will emerge.

quote:


On the other hand, French is far too circumvoluted and complex for this and it's not a mercantile language at all.


French is way simpler than English, and I hardly speak (or write) a word of it.

quote:


What makes a language rich, all in all, is its everyday use.


How so?

quote:


From what I have experienced, in the English speaking world, the average individual's vocabulary seems to be limited to about 1000 words [:D].


Depends on the social group.

In the UK, it varies from 500 (about half of Basic English) to about 10.000 words.

quote:


I'm not sure it is the same in francophone countries.


It's pretty invariant across geographies within the PIE area, as I recall.

But it's highly variable across social strata etc.



Aswad -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/17/2007 7:23:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

The point I was making in all this is that these languages are all derived from Latin.


I hope you mean the Romance languages (French, Italian, Spanish, etc.).

Because English, while borrowing about half a million words, is not derived from Latin.

quote:


Some have been controlled whilst others have been added to and changed radically.


Controlled is putting a very nice face on it.

See, for instance, the great vowel shift, which is a clusterfuck of unimaginable dimensions.

quote:


If we all follow the rules no new words came about because we reject them as being wrong.


Well, sort of correct, though there is something to be said for lexicographical correctness.

Although I kind of like that Icelandic calls computers "number oracles" or somesuch.

quote:


Am I to say to an American that Jewellery isn’t spelt Jewelry, colour isn’t spelt color, centre isn’t spelt center and programme isn’t spelt program.


Obviously, my good Sir, as we all know there is no such thing as American English. Those ignorant brutes will one day learn the glory that is the Queen's English, at which point they will spontaneously convert to received pronounciation, hand back our colonies on the American Continent, and join us in a merry chorus of Rule Brittania!

quote:


At some point changes occurred and we must accept that changes will occur again.  


Clearly, or we would all still be speaking some proto-something-or-other language.
If not sticking to outright grunting and onomatapoeia.

For instance, the SVO ordering currently used in English tells us that it will probably have a VSO ordering instead somewhere along the line, as the SVO order is merely transitional between VSO and SOV, and Old English was SOV ordered. One of the missing pieces is a question particle, and that is on its way with people (predominantly women) using "no?" or "neh?" at the end of phrases, which will eventually be adopted more widely (probably, at least), and then there is no need to maintain a distinct word order for questions, leaving the transition free to complete.



Aswad -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/17/2007 7:24:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BruisedHick

Yeah, but English aint a romantic language.  It's germanic.


It certainly isn't romantic, no.
And it's not a Romance language, either. [:D]
Whether it is Germanic, however, is quite debatable.
By now, it's more in the "stew" family of languages, really...



breatheasone -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/18/2007 12:06:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IcySub

I point out a person's spelling errors regardless if they don't mind it. A spell checker isn't hard to obtain online so there's no excuse for incorrect spelling. If I come across a dom's (where english is their first language) profile that has atrocious misspellings, I pass them up. If they can't spell, what good are they to me?


Well aren't you a breath of fresh air....LOL....btw nice nic [8|]



FullCircle -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/18/2007 4:17:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

I hope you mean the Romance languages (French, Italian, Spanish, etc.).

Because English, while borrowing about half a million words, is not derived from Latin.




I’m not a linguistics expert so I’ll bow to your superior judgment on that one. For me modern English didn’t develop in isolation from other languages therefore its hard for me to understand how it isn’t derived from the same source as we aren’t talking about ancient languages here.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/18/2007 4:31:48 AM)

To nobody in particular, with regard to different languages I think of the three foreign languages I have minimal knowledge of, the most logical by far is Spanish. I mean the language structure.

I cant think of the grammatical terms but whenever something new crops up there always seemed to me to be a connection with what I had learned before.

The difference between
Hablo I speak
and
Hablo with an accent He/she spoke isn't so easy tho'
Its in the pronunciation I believe
Hablooooooooo I speak
Hablo short sharp He spoke.
Es verdad ?



NorthernGent -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/18/2007 4:40:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Complete and utter bollocks.


http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewarticle.asp?AuthorID=8077

How many words in the English language taken from the French language vs the amount of words in the French language taken from the English language? The French are purists and they control how their language develops to the point that barely any development takes place at all. That is a well known fact. Your point of dispute may be that controlling a language in such a way is a good thing I don’t know.

Number of words in the English Language around 800,000 but in French around 100,000. How many ways can you say ‘cat’ and mistake it with something else?



It's more to do with the fact that the Normans conquered and settled in England in the 11th century. They imposed their language in the Southern half. 'Long story short, the French language ran alongside Anglo-Saxon for a couple of hundred years, and this is why we have a couple of words meaning pretty much the same thing: luck/chance, youth/lad etc. The great thing about England is our willingness to take on board foreign ideas and methods, and mould them into our own way of doing things. It really does distinguish us from the French and others, and is quintessentially English.



Aswad -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/18/2007 4:48:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

I’m not a linguistics expert so I’ll bow to your superior judgment on that one. For me modern English didn’t develop in isolation from other languages therefore its hard for me to understand how it isn’t derived from the same source as we aren’t talking about ancient languages here.


English is derived from both Germanic languages, with some influence from Romance languages.
Ultimately, the furthest back we can trace the roots would be Proto-Indo-European.
That, in turn, is derived from something else, but we don't have sources to use.



SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/18/2007 4:49:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Uh huh. Sorry's good, but I would like to see it improve nonetheless. While nothing stops you from using 'sub speech', I think it would be good if you were as adamant about correct usage of capitalisation as you are about spelling.

Did I make myself clear? STOMP!


capitalization


Both spellings are acceptable: I write from an Anglo-English perspective [:D].


i reckon that splains it-only the one is in our redneck websters version[;)]



NorthernGent -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/18/2007 4:59:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

I’m not a linguistics expert so I’ll bow to your superior judgment on that one. For me modern English didn’t develop in isolation from other languages therefore its hard for me to understand how it isn’t derived from the same source as we aren’t talking about ancient languages here.


English is derived from both Germanic languages, with some influence from Romance languages.
Ultimately, the furthest back we can trace the roots would be Proto-Indo-European.
That, in turn, is derived from something else, but we don't have sources to use.



Well, yeah. By extension, you could say that all languages have evolved from one place.

In terms of countries as we know them today, English is a hybrid of old French, old German etc. In the area of England in which I was brought up, we still use old Norse words such as beck (meaning stream, as you'll know).



Politesub53 -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/18/2007 5:37:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

If people didn’t misspell words and make their own up English would become as limited as French and not evolve. Shakespeare couldn’t spell either by our standards.


Shakespeare comes across as hard to read mainly as it`s written in verse form. The spelling of English words has changed over the years, and my guess is not many of us would recognise the works as written by Chaucer much less Beowulf.

Incidentally how many words have become common thanks to recent technology... Modem, intenet Cable tv ect ect

I only tend to correct people who are themselves moaning about poor "grammer" [8D]

Edits for poor typing as my spelling was fine !



FullCircle -> RE: Spelling and online... (8/18/2007 5:46:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

One of the missing pieces is a question particle, and that is on its way with people (predominantly women) using "no?" or "neh?" at the end of phrases



It may just be me but I think this has come about because people are scared of having an opinion and so they phrase it in the form of a question, no?



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