RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (Full Version)

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thetammyjo -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 10:34:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

~~ Sorry, a bit off topic ~~

Tammyjo...I love the new pic


Thanks.

The "table" I'm leaning against is actually Fox covered with cupcakes for one of his birthdays.



teamnoir -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 10:36:09 AM)

I'm not sure I agree that sexual orientation is always genetic. I tend to believe that it's not, but is rather environmental. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's a "choice", although in many cases I believe that it is.

I feel similarly about bdsm orientations and roles, although I'm convinced that these are entirely environmental with little or no genetic antecedents.



Rover -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 10:54:29 AM)

Studies of twins, even those separated at birth and thus raised in different environments, have strongly suggested a genetic component to sexual orientation.  It's not a 100 % correlation, but it is well beyond chance.
 
John



SmokingGun82 -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 11:42:12 AM)

This is an issue I've thought of often. It's also a conversation I often find myself in, usually as the sole straight person in a group, and I'm a little gun shy about jumping in... but here goes.

I'm not willing to accept that either sexual orientation or BDSM inclinations are inherent, or that personal choice has nothing to do with orientation. Which isn't to say I think people necessarily "choose" to be gay or straight, sub or dom... just that there's an element of personal choice involved. Maybe you (speaking generally) are a little more interested in men/women, or submission, or whatever... but at some point you make a decision to pursue that life.

Which isn't to say people should hide who they think they are- I just get a little antsy when people try to remove personal choice/responsibility from any issue.



SusanofO -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 12:19:31 PM)

I appreciate all of the replies. Thanks.

IrishMist: To clarify what I meant (which I should have done before) is that I've read that soem early childhood experiences actually alter a person's brain chemistry. I was thinking along those lines. So, it would still be (a D/s orientation) biologically influenced, just that the reasons for those biological influences might be less "innate" than ones formed in the womb, maybe. But heck, I don't know for certain. I do believe Archer made a great point about the difficulty of studying "nurture" effects.

- Susan



Rover -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 1:47:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SmokingGun82

Maybe you (speaking generally) are a little more interested in men/women, or submission, or whatever... but at some point you make a decision to pursue that life.


The decision to act in an entirely different question as to what one "is" inherently. 
 
John



SmokingGun82 -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 1:54:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

The decision to act in an entirely different question as to what one "is" inherently. 
 
John


Maybe, maybe not. It's not a deeply held belief for me, so I'd prefer not to go too far and offend anyone that does have strong feelings, but I'm of the opinion that behaviors can lead to preferences, and preferences can be manufactured.

But that's just from my own experiences and observations. Take it as you will.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 1:55:32 PM)

How I put it is like this:

Orientations are innate.

Expressions of orientations are learned.



MadRabbit -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 2:13:47 PM)

I beleive the desire is something that is simply apart of us and thats it.

I find the analogy of D/S orientations to sexual orientations to be simply an analogy and nothing more.

What that desire is and what people want out of the relationship is too complex and changes too much with different people to place it in the narrow lines of "Dominant is attracted to submissive" and "Submissive is attracted to Dominant" like "Straight man is attracted to woman" and "Gay man is attracted to men"

Sexual orientations only apply to sexual relationships, but we dominate and submit in all different aspects of our lives so people who try and match up our actions with some narrow minded Kinsey "hard wiring" kind of thing come off as very wrong and false to me.

Nor do I think it has to do with personality traits since the whole "Alpha and Beta" personality thing is mostly just generalizations. Its very hard to guess who's orientation is what based on a person' personality at a munch and people who try are quite off very erroneous.

I've met Alpha males who control the relationship in all aspects except the bedroom where they are submissive. I've met Alpha slaves who, at first impression, could have sworn were the head of the relationship, but by paying close attention, realized their was a dominant they gave up authority to.

So while I think the desire, whatever that desire is for a particular individual is innate, I think dividing people up into 0's, 3's, and 6's is false.



beargonewild -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 2:27:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SmokingGun82

Which isn't to say I think people necessarily "choose" to be gay or straight, sub or dom... just that there's an element of personal choice involved. Maybe you (speaking generally) are a little more interested in men/women, or submission, or whatever... but at some point you make a decision to pursue that life.



From my point of view, for the most part, I do not believe I chose to be gay, in general. Yet following your train of thought regarding  "...at some point you make a decision to pursue that life." is correct. In the sense that at some point in my life, when reaching a crossroads, I did make a conscious decision to be open about my orientation instead of trying to supress my true self and live life as a heterosexual male with a wife and UMS.



goddessAVA -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 2:50:17 PM)

Susan-I will never forget my first Domme experience.  I had boyfriends who did the dom thing with me but it never clicked-I thought bdsm was unpleasent.  Well, out of curiosity I went to watch a session with a girl-in every sense of the word-I knew Domme a lawyer friend.  I hate to say it but she was LAME-so not into it-I wound up taking the session over, spanking, tying him, humiliating him......it was really like I had found myself, I can only imagine it is the same "click" a gay person feels.  I did try to be out of the scene at one point but I CRAVED being a Domina, now I live it pretty much 24/7 and even my family has commented on how centered and happy I seem.  Just my story-I know everyone is different.



SusanofO -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 2:57:32 PM)

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I do think it's an intriguing question, although I am not sure science will define the answer for a few more years, I know what I think I believe, based on my own life experiences. I knew I had these feelings for years - I just didn't realize there was any venue where I could express them (either online, or in real life). I thought there must be other people like me, and I didn't ever feel "evil" or anything, like that, just maybe a bit odd. But not anymore...[:)]

- Susan



WhiplashSmile -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 4:12:57 PM)

I'm one of those that have always been this way since I can remember.  It was a bitch when I was younger.  I did not understand it all, I was ashamed of thinking and feeling drawn to certain things.   But, yes it has always been part of who and what I am.



Carrianna -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 4:19:54 PM)

Enjoyed reading this thread.  Ummmmmm, now to answer....  I suppose I have always been dominant, but it was not untill 8+ years ago I understood how I could use this more to my benifit, it was also around this time I found out about BDSM (I love the Internet) as I thought everyone tied their partner to the bed, jumped on top, put hand over their nose and mouth, came first, jumpped off, mother said, ohhh you hear about things like that, but you dont think it is in your own family, (yes very open family) I said pardon, the rest is history...



DiurnalVampire -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 4:24:27 PM)

I have always been dominant before I knew what it was.
I have always been bisexual, even though I avoided the idea when I was younger becasue of the stigmas.

I believe that most people have inclinations one way or another. Now, wether or not they ever decide to act on them, or they find their happiness elsewhere... is a differnet story



SuspendedInGaffa -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 5:28:37 PM)

This is something I've often thought about. Certainly whenever I see BDSM discussed on television documentaries I'm never convinced by the explanations put forward, such as the hoary old cliche, "Oh, it's men who are powerful in their jobs and need to relax, and they do that by relinquishing control". Maybe this is true in some cases but I don't recognise it in myself, so I don't see it as the ultimate answer by any means.

My femdom fantasies started when I was about 12, and at that age I had no idea there were any other people who felt this way. So from that perspective it seems like I was born with it. However, I was born in 1960, and so I was subjected to some seriously kinky television as I was growing up. Tough, capable, smart, fetish-clad women were new, dangerous and fashionable back then. As I got a little bit older, I began to realise that whenever Catwoman tied Batman and Robin up, and was clearly getting off on her power over them, so was I. And I was always disappointed when they escaped. But was this because of something innate within my own makeup, or because I'd been put in front of similar scenes before at such an impressionable age?

And then later, whenever I had a bit of BDSM play with partners, I'd always assumed that submissive was the way I'd been made, and if there was anything kinky on offer that's the way I'd want it. But I found that if the woman I was with got off by being, for example, tied up, spanked and called a bitch, I was quite happy to do it. There was the vicarious pleasure of course, imagining myself in her shoes, but what I got the most pleasure out of was that I was doing it because my woman wanted it, and I could see that it turned her on; and so I was happy to be dominant to her because I was a devoted submissive! Complicated business at times, ain't it?

But I've rambled. The point I meant to make in that last paragraph was that we can still change, so nuture plays a big part. I still feel that the openness to alternative sexual play is in some way innate within me, but maybe that's just a hunch. One thing I'm much more confident about saying is that the more people are capable about really THINKING about sex, gender roles and power, the more open they are to kinky, perverted wonderfulness.



catize -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 6:21:47 PM)

Some of us are born.  Some of us are made.
Bottom line....if you're happy its all good!



SusanofO -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 6:50:59 PM)

Nice reply, catize![:)]

- Susan



submittous -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 7:29:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

This question has been asked often enough, on enough forums, and replied to by enough respondants, that I feel comfortable saying the majority of lifestylers believe that Dominance and submission are innate qualities.  I am in that majority. 
 
Further, there is growing medical evidence that implies such a thing to be true as well. 
 
John


Nicely said and we are in total agreement. The longer we spend involved in bdsm the more we believe the above to be true

Bill and Iris



Honsoku -> RE: Are BDSM inclinations as inherent as gay or straight orientations? (8/17/2007 7:33:24 PM)

I think it can be both. Minds are incredibly malleable when young, so the environment has almost certainly has play in the issue. Both environment and genetics get tossed into the blender to determine the slurry that is orientation.

I think people secure in themselves tend to recoil at this idea because it undermines their security in their identity. It implies that they could have ended up differently if their situation was different. It attacks the core concept of "this is me". This has got to be incredibly difficult idea to embrace, especially if one has gone through significant hardship learning to embrace their orientation. Your environment does become a part of you, for good or ill. Is a dish made any thing other than what it already is because of the ingredients or the chef?

Honsoku



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