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Britain battles drunk, violent youths - 8/15/2007 4:31:12 PM

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LONDON - One of Britain’s top police officers called for urgent moves to stem a rising tide of youth violence on Wednesday after a 47-year-old father of three was kicked to death by a group of young drunks.

The man, a company director from Warrington in northwest England, had tried to remonstrate with the group when he saw them damaging a vehicle and other property outside his home.

It was the latest in a series of violent, and frequently deadly, attacks by abusive, drunk young people in Britain.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20283225

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RE: Britain battles drunk, violent youths - 8/15/2007 4:41:24 PM

luckydog1

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Well it certainly is a good thing the 47 year old father of 3 didn't have a pistol, or else he might be alive and one or more of the punks who kick old men to death for fun while engaging in drunken vandalism be dead.

Thats sarcasm

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RE: Britain battles drunk, violent youths - 8/15/2007 4:43:59 PM

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I know lol. And I thought the same thing.

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RE: Britain battles drunk, violent youths - 8/15/2007 4:45:12 PM

LATEXBABY64

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god guns and guts yep shootem all let god sort em out lol ooohraaah

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RE: Britain battles drunk, violent youths - 8/15/2007 4:51:53 PM

utterlybutterfli

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The saddest thing for me, is that this sort of thing is seemingly so commonplace in some parts of Britain, that it doesn't even shock or suprise anymore when we hear about it.
Young adults, it seems are being killed by eachother, regularly (sometimes it feels like on a daily basis) with guns and knives in London and Manchester. I wouldn't want anyone that I know to confront a violent or confrontational gang of youths. Some people (the elderly, usually) are unfortunate to live in places where they are afraid to leave their houses due to fear of harrassment and intimidation from people like this. Most of us are lucky, its not like it happens everwhere, in every community
It makes me very sad. I don't know what should be done, neither does anyone else seem to. I start to think all sorts of highly unliberal thughts when I consider it.

I feel terrible for this family and any other family that has been affected by this sort of senseless violence. Just a not so Great aspect of Britain.

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RE: Britain battles drunk, violent youths - 8/15/2007 11:41:37 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: utterlybutterfli

The saddest thing for me, is that this sort of thing is seemingly so commonplace in some parts of Britain, that it doesn't even shock or suprise anymore when we hear about it.
Young adults, it seems are being killed by eachother, regularly (sometimes it feels like on a daily basis) with guns and knives in London and Manchester. I wouldn't want anyone that I know to confront a violent or confrontational gang of youths. Some people (the elderly, usually) are unfortunate to live in places where they are afraid to leave their houses due to fear of harrassment and intimidation from people like this. Most of us are lucky, its not like it happens everwhere, in every community
It makes me very sad. I don't know what should be done, neither does anyone else seem to. I start to think all sorts of highly unliberal thughts when I consider it.

I feel terrible for this family and any other family that has been affected by this sort of senseless violence. Just a not so Great aspect of Britain.

There were 50 shootings in England and Wales in 2006. That's not exactly "on a daily basis". 'Not sure on the stabbings stats.

It "seems like a daily basis" because of the disproportionate amount of news coverage devoted to these incidents. The tabloids and TV stations simply report violence from start to finish.

You mention the elderly: muggings and assaults on the elderly are actually reducing. You could argue that the figures are being massaged, but the government has an incentive to overstate crime, rather than underplay it; that incentive being to lay the foundations for their anti-civil liberties measures, and all-round climate of fear.

England has always fostered an unruly element: if you read foreign travellers accounts of visits to England, you'll see that 18th century travellers witnessed a level of violence here that they claimed were alien to them, inner city areas in Victorian England were no go areas for the police, and we had far more riots and general gang violence in Thatcher's era than today.

The issue is that, despite our current government, England is quite possibly the most liberal country in the world. This tradition has been passed down from generation to generation; the result being that people have freedom (unrestricted by church and conservative attitude), and that means people are free to chase their desires: most people are entrepreneurial, but others value violence as a means of "achievement". The road to minimising violence in English youth culture is one of managing the underclass that has always existed in England; in my book, the answer is to break the cycle of values passed down from generation to generation: it can only be done through regeneration and investment in run-down areas, but it's not in the interests of the people running this country to have a universally well-educated society, so I wouldn't expect it to happen.

This is of no value to the dead man, of course, but it doesn't alter the disproporionate amount of coverage devoted to these incidents. I live in Manchester; I don't recognise your Manchester.

Edited for spelling

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 8/15/2007 11:46:25 PM >

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RE: Britain battles drunk, violent youths - 8/15/2007 11:44:27 PM

Alhazred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

LONDON - One of Britain’s top police officers called for urgent moves to stem a rising tide of youth violence on Wednesday after a 47-year-old father of three was kicked to death by a group of young drunks.

The man, a company director from Warrington in northwest England, had tried to remonstrate with the group when he saw them damaging a vehicle and other property outside his home.

It was the latest in a series of violent, and frequently deadly, attacks by abusive, drunk young people in Britain.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20283225

mmmmmm... A Clockwork Orange *lix*

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RE: Britain battles drunk, violent youths - 8/16/2007 12:14:24 AM

meatcleaver

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If you run the economy solely for the rich, you get ghettoes where this sort of thing becomes common place. Where I was brought up, Thatcher destroyed the industry there and put nothing in its place so drugs and guns moved into the vaccuum. Also imported gangsta culture into the ghettoes has had a further negative effect. While every country has its violence, Britain would do well to follow the more European social model of society than its out and out adherence to rightwing economic philosophy.

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RE: Britain battles drunk, violent youths - 8/16/2007 12:16:48 AM

Alhazred

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*rotfl*

If not for and by the rich.. then for whom and for what..?

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RE: Britain battles drunk, violent youths - 8/16/2007 12:19:47 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alhazred

*rotfl*

If not for and by the rich.. then for whom and for what..?

I'm sorry if I make you fall off the chair with this reply but dare I say............the people?

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RE: Britain battles drunk, violent youths - 8/16/2007 1:32:53 AM

popeye1250

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Gent, can't you keep Seeks under control?

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RE: Britain battles drunk, violent youths - 8/16/2007 1:40:33 AM

Vendaval

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Hehehehe....thanks guys, I needed that laugh!

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Gent, can't you keep Seeks under control?

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RE: Britain battles drunk, violent youths - 8/16/2007 2:27:00 AM

LadyEllen

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I'm sorry NG. You tell us at one and the same time that you have little experience of these sort of incidents, yet then feel able to attempt to quell the very real fear about the whole situation? And for the record, I'm not interested in 19th century sociological comparisons - the UK today is very different to the Great Britain of then. Yes though, there has always been street violence, but this is of an entirely different flavour to any other we have seen.

The main difference? A total lack of fear for any consequences whatsoever; from authority, from parents and from ordinary people in the street. The reason for this? The granting of adult rights to those not mature enough to handle them alongside a diminuition in terms of consequences by way of the same rights. Children are no different to adults in this way of course - a certain proportion will welcome their rights and respond accordingly - others will run wild. And by children, I think really we can assume up to age 21; becoming an adult at 16 was all well and good in the "good old days" when one left school at 14 to start work, but we should not expect the same today when we keep our offspring as children - that is dependent, until far later.

We must also consider the refrain of MC (and myself) about the Thatcher era, which destroyed not only society but also any sense of what is fair and right - a nebulous idea to be sure, yet one we all seem to share. The outcome of her disastrous rule we are experiencing now, in a culture which has been taught that its OK to do whatever as long as one can get away with it. And more than that, that its good to get away with it and to make the biggest noise in doing so. Yet this is just the tip of the iceberg, for the housing policy of the Thatcher years is also haunting us now I believe with young people unable to get housing and finding it pointless to save, they use all their disposable income on being loud, getting drunk and being proud of it.

And then, there is the definite ending of the era of rebellion that started in the 60s. For decades there were figureheads for rebellion, political messages to attach to rebellion and things worth struggling against and for. And there was a sense of what the country was, British identity was, against which to define rebellion. In the days of personality politics and a pea soup of policy indiscernible between movements, a lack of any common identity, with the ending of class war (so say) there is nothing to identify with or to define onesself against. Meanwhile, the classless society does exist, if we are to exempt from that view that there is a strong underclass and an elite of super rich "stars" whose fame is their claim to fame to which the young aspire. It could be you, after all - but it aint likely to be. But in the meantime they all seem to feel they only wait for opportunity and should be entitled to special treatment and allowance now, as super rich stars of the future.

All this contributes to the difference in the type of violence and obnoxious behaviour we are experiencing in our towns and cities these days. This violence is not for monetary gain, its not about any issue. Its about the breaching of a sense of entitlement these youths feel they have to run amok with no come back from anyone. Intervention brings not resistance, but indignant and vicious assertion of entitlement.

Until we deal with children as children, provide adequate deterrent - not through the courts but through wide societal censure, acquire a sense of who we are as a nation and what we stand for, resolve the inequities brought about by the rampant consumerism we live in, provide futures for people and sort out our politics (PR would be good), we can only expect more of the same.

And God help the first person who intervenes and wins the fight with these youths, ' cause the justice system surely will not.

E

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RE: Britain battles drunk, violent youths - 8/16/2007 5:40:02 AM

seeksfemslave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Gent, can't you keep Seeks under control?

LuvU2 Popeye and Vendaval.lol

Its no good arskin' NG to control anything he's too busy turning a blind eye to whats happening right under his nose.lol
There's only been about six people shot dead in Manchester since he posted that there was no gun crime there and everybody got on so well.

Glad to see that Lady Ellen is back on song again.lol
I think her point about "lack of rebellion" is backwards though. Its the lack of deference and fear of the consequences thats causing the major social problems we see today. The NG's of this world just dont get it.
I would have to say also that NG is a moderate example of the breed. I mean the PC brigade who amongst many sins will not hold anyone responseable for anything.
Let the Barstards run wild from about the age of about10 to 17, or so, send that small minority that can be caught to prison and then blame prison for actually causing their behaviour.
I arsk ya !

As for blaming MrsT, that doesnt wash with me and I was not her number 1 fan either.
Meatcleaver: we've always had a social underclass but they weren't so dangerous as they are today. IMO. The real victims are the poor sods who do their best but have to live near these low lifes.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 8/16/2007 5:58:34 AM >

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RE: Britain battles drunk, violent youths - 8/16/2007 5:55:35 AM

Politesub53

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Certainly there have been more shootings and killings in London and Manchester than last year. London alone has seen 17 teenagers shot to death. I know what the Op means, it does feel like something is happening daily, even if its "Only" every three or four days. No Teen gangs ran around shooting each other until the Yardies as far as i know. Certainly drugs play as much a part of the problem as drink.I agree the press make it worse than it is, but thats not to say it isnt bad.
Thatcher is always an easy target for the left, look for someone to blame and up pops Maggie. When she came to power the decline had already got a good grip on the UK. The Shipbuilding, Coal, Steel, and Car manufactoring industries were already in decline. Mainly due to cheaper imports from overseas. Japan was producing cheaper electrical goods. Housing as ever was hard to find, and yes Thatcher was to blame for much of the loss of affordable housing.
I wonder who will fare worse in History though, Thatcher or Blair ?

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RE: Britain battles drunk, violent youths - 8/16/2007 5:58:36 AM

mnottertail

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A Clockwork Orange

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RE: Britain battles drunk, violent youths - 8/16/2007 6:10:36 AM

seeksfemslave

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Excellent post Politesub, your Mistress must be doing something right lol

Take motor cycles: what did MrsT have to do with the decline of that industry ?
Same with cars.
The answer Sweet F All.
I lurve my Yamaha 600 and it lurves me.

An excercise for NG who says that successive Brit. governments dont want the population to be educated.
Research how much in real terms expenditure on education has gone up since the late 1950's.
Answer me at your leisure NG or else never post again lol

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 8/16/2007 6:15:01 AM >

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RE: Britain battles drunk, violent youths - 8/16/2007 7:27:54 AM

LadyEllen

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If one wants to understand the bigger picture behind the shit state of affairs we're in, one has to look at the decline of the Empire.

Post war and indeed until it was all gone, bought out or shipped overseas, our industries were dominated by the idea of the Empire, and the notion of "British is best". Businesses were run on old fashioned structure and organisation with the ideology that of course, the Brits and the whole world wanted our products so we didnt need to do anything to compete. We didnt invest, we carried on unchanged from almost Victorian practices and we were out-managed, out-entrepreneured, out-organised as a result. Meanwhile, those whose countries had been destroyed by the war came up with new ways, with the result that we were eventually out-sourced or out of business. British management was and in most cases remains, the worst in the world.

Business and industry did its level best to retain all that old Imperial ideology in my view, whilst all around the society was changing as the reality of being no longer a world power but a counter colonised island off Europe sank in, accompanied by huge social and cultural upheaval as American culture poured in, and a more permissive society developed. Religion almost disappeared alongside all this, perceived to be the means of thought control which it is. Society turned away from the old Imperial mindset to become the much more open and free way it is now.

But we threw the baby out with the bathwater in ridding ourselves of the grip of religion. For religion had attached itself to every aspect of the culture in some way and as it sank, it took so much with it that we need, like basic respect for one another, meeting obligations, commitment to our promises and good manners.

And the loss of our old Imperial culture has hurt us too, in that we have so far not come up with anything new as a means of unifying our nation with a common idea. And as we swell with ever more diverse immigration, the time to do that is rapidly passing in my view, leaving us sharing a land but little else, which does not bode well for the future.

And then there is the welfare state - meant to be a safety net, it has somehow come to be regarded by the leadership and by the beneficiaries as a means of lifestyle support for those for whom a use cannot be found. The result of this is obvious in that there is no reason to make an effort in our country, for the state shall provide, and provide better than most employments at the lower end of the spectrum and most in the upper spectrum should one work it right.

Such a country is the one in which we live and most relevantly the one in which children are growing up with little or no respect for anything or anyone and with no idea what it means to be British or indeed to live in a stable and prosperous society where contribution brings personal reward. The real issue is how do we resolve all this.

E

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RE: Britain battles drunk, violent youths - 8/16/2007 7:28:37 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Excellent post Politesub, your Mistress must be doing something right lol

Take motor cycles: what did MrsT have to do with the decline of that industry ?
Same with cars.
The answer Sweet F All.
I lurve my Yamaha 600 and it lurves me.

British industry was in decline because British management sucked!!!!!!!!!!! So what did Britain need? Exactly opposite of what Thatcher did. British manufacture declined by 30% under her reign because of eceonomic mismanagement. She exchanged a skilled economy for a low wage unskilled economy.

At the same time Leyland was making crap cars if they were making cars at all (Leyland had a period of eleven years without a new model!!!!!!), Renault was in just as a bad a condition yet France still has a thriving car industry.

You mentioned Yamaha seeks. Queens University used to so R&D work for the British motorbike industry and later for Yamaha. The Professor in chgarge of the faculty said the difference between working for the British and Japanese was planets apart. They would have a research project and ask the British management for the go ahead and they would want time to think about it, they would come back in six months and ask if it could be done much cheaper. With the Japanese, the decision to go ahead with a project or not was made with 24 hours and 99% of the time they would get the go ahead.

When Thatcher destroyed the coal industry, profitable mines were made to be unprofitable so they could be closed. This was done by such things as central depots refusing to take back obsolete or played out machinery from mines and forcing mines to pay the full hire on those machines. Result, mines paid out millions of pounds for useless machinery that was literally scrap. But what is more important, in the process of destroying the mines, she destroyed a whole profitable mines engineering export industry.

I could go on and on but you just have to look at the industries she privatised. The rail network is worse in Britain than under the old underinvested British Railways and are third world compared to Rail networks in other European countries. What is more, Britain imports new trains (not enough of them) where once it had its own train engineering industry. I could go on and on. She basically threw the baby out with the bath water.

Britain now over relies on the City of London which is why social policies come after welfare policies for millionaires and why the rich get richer, the poor get poorer and each day social problems become more akin to what you find in the ghettoes of American cities.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/16/2007 7:29:51 AM >

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RE: Britain battles drunk, violent youths - 8/16/2007 8:24:13 AM

Politesub53

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Meat your point about poor management would have happened whoever was running the government. You say Manufacturing declined 30% under Thatcher, this is not true.

Quotes

It is simply not true that all these jobs (about 23 million of them altogether) are in the service sector. Overall, the numbers employed in UK manufacturing have declined in the past 30 years (the high point was reached about 1970) but, according to figures published in Social Trends (January 2000), the total number of workers employed in UK manufacturing today is actually slightly higher than it was in 1901. However, there are two points worth making in relation to manufacturing jobs. The biggest single decline took place in the 1970s, not in the 1980s or 1990s under Thatcher and Major. And the decline of manufacturing does not mean that these jobs become less important, or indeed less powerful, from the point of view of workers. Increased productivity means that machines replace people to perform certain jobs, but then the workers who use the machines produce more wealth per worker for the capitalists.
Unquotes.

This is taken from a report in the socialist review. http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/sr248/german.htm

The truth is that since ww2 heavy industry has been in decline. Poor investments, by successive Governments of all persuasions have been the decline. There are many reasons the coal industry collapsed, the lack of a market being one, the constant miners strike being another. Thatcher was determined that no trade union should have the power to bring down an elected govermnet, and Scargill shares as much blame for the strike as anyone else.

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Post #: 20

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