Dominance or Abuse? (Full Version)

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ExquisiteFeline -> Dominance or Abuse? (8/13/2007 8:14:26 PM)


i just happen to catch the Opera Windfry episode of Susan Still http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Still_(Women's_rights_activist), i never watch these kind of shows but i have friend who is addicted to them.
As i watched i came to recognize that the relationship they were in was a D/s, POSSIBLY at a time where it was consensual. i felt that Susan was no open about the truth of her relationship due to the nature of it being broadcasted, however towards the end Susan stated that her husband made her call him Master. There certainly seemed to be a lot of BDSM connotation and behavior in the most negative way possible.
With everything is BDSM we find those lines, the line between pleasure and pain, the line between power and submission, and the line between Dominance and abuse. Every person has their lines drawn in different places, and what one may consider abuse another may consider pleasure.
But this person who was Susan's husband was certainly someone that possesses no qualities that would regard him as a Master in any context, Dominant yes indeed, psychotic absolutely. This person had absolutely no control over himself that would entail him to Dominate anyone. This is clearly abuse, and makes me wonder how much of BDSM is an excuse for such a predatory abuser to have a outlet for their abusive violence in the context of "Consensual."

Back in my journal i stated "...if we deny the beast it becomes more brutal..." maybe i was wrong, as we actually condone and nurture the beast. As a mother i know, if we ignore the behavior we dont like and praise the behavior we do like, it has a greater effect. This does not mean that if Billy is hitting Johnny that we ignore what is going on we simply remove Billy from the presence of everyone, and ask Billy to think about why he has been removed.

So what can be done about abusive Dominants? How can healing be brought about to Dominant personalities that have gained an 'out of control' attitude?
Is submission a route to healing?

In a forum post i stated-
"Any sub that condones exploitation and misuse of power is not doing the Doms any good, they are nurturing a sociopath, or i guess that is where the strength of submission comes in, 'can i not break before he does', and becomes a humble leader. In that case it is the submissive with the greatest strength and not the Dominant, and it is the submissive's belief that there is a good person in the corrupted Dominant that continues her submission and devotion. This is a service of a submissive, the submissive is also doing a good service when she takes off her collar and says "i am not going to let you treat ppl like that anymore."
http://www.collarchat.com/m_1191697/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm

Is submission the lost "Goddess" energy, that can somehow or another bring back healing between the masculine and feminine of our existence?



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Dominance or Abuse? (8/13/2007 8:20:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExquisiteFeline
So what can be done about abusive Dominants?

Same thing we do with any abusive person.  Make choices so that they understand this behavior is completely unacceptable, including judgement and punishment.

quote:

How can healing be brought about to Dominant personalities that have gained an 'out of control' attitude?

Don't confuse dominant personality with dominant orientation.

And healing always begins within- slaves can be just as much out of control.
quote:


Is submission a route to healing?

It is one route.  So is dominance.  Mostly it's being true to yourself and respect others.

quote:


Is submission the lost "Goddess" energy, that can somehow or another bring back healing between the masculine and feminine of our existence?

It can be.  Again, it is but one of many ways.  Not everyone was meant to be a dom or sub or switch.  It would be wrong to try and force them down that path.



ChainsandFreedom -> RE: Dominance or Abuse? (8/13/2007 8:38:32 PM)

quote:

Don't confuse dominant personality with dominant orientation.


LA or anyone else, sorry to bother you with it, but would mind explaining what the differance is? I've never heard the distinction and don't know what you mean.



ChainsandFreedom -> RE: Dominance or Abuse? (8/13/2007 8:52:27 PM)

I think that the problem with an abusive dominate is probably that there is a sub or two in his past who put up with it.

as a sub, you have a responsibilty to protect yourself, assuming you arn't fortunate enough to trust your dominate to look out for your interests for you (at which point maybe you should simply find another dominante). Being submissive, even being maschoistic, can become self-destructive or even suicidal if nobody involved cares about your best interests. Just because somebody is 'no limits', for instance, doesnt mean somebody else could murder them, or no matter how much of a slave you are, it doesnt give someone else the right to destroy your life or well being-they can use you but they arn't supposed to break you beyond repair, i guess.

Lots of people seem to be submissive because they want to release themselves of responsibility, but its wrong to loose yourself so much you allow yourself to be truely abused, beyond what you want to consent to, beyond what its healthy to consent to (I have no idea what level of consent makes a sub simply insane, so I'm trying to tread lightly here). Not that an abused person should blame themselves, but its on them to get out of the situation.

I think of abusive dominants, often, like i think of violent drunks or sexually sucessful assholes in the real world. Their surronded by people who say things like 'sure he shouldn't have hit them, but he's a great guy once you get to know him' or, 'I know he's an asshole to other guys, but he's not like that to me, his lover'. If people didn't find excuses for the abuser's behavior, soon he'd have nobody around him to abuse and he'd either have to be alone or go through the difficult process of modifying his behavior.

to be dominant carries with it responsiblity not to abuse in a non-consensual manner, and if you can't live up to that responsibility, those around you should strip you of the ability to be dominant



Morsigil -> RE: Dominance or Abuse? (8/13/2007 9:59:07 PM)

A dominant personality, someone of dominant orientation... In this case the lines have blurred between reality and fantasy and it's not really necessary to nit-pick.

I think you answer your own question ExquisiteFeline and I agree with ChainsandFreedom. People who abuse others need to have that power taken away by the people they abuse. The only chance an abuser has is to accept that what they are doing is wrong. They will never learn that it is wrong until people close to them send that message in action, not words. Even then abusers will battle with the desire for the rest of their lives.

I believe that human beings are inching towards equality, and this inequality will be looked back on with disgust and disbelief just like the majority (at least outwardly, for the time being) look back on slavery and racism. I think that we've been moving towards equality since they day the human race was capable of recognizing that the impact they have on others can affect them as well.

Submission and control has nothing to do with anything besides our sexual perversions in my opinion. It can be spiritual for some, sure, but what I see in most people who are experiencing submission or dominance is a joy and peace of mind and body that is brought on by the reinforcement of an absolutely core belief developed when young that they may not even fully understand or recognize. Humbleness. Vulnerability, and realiance on another can teach humility, and so it can be taught through submission for some, but not everyone.

Anyone agree?



ExquisiteFeline -> RE: Dominance or Abuse? (8/14/2007 1:22:02 AM)

i totally agree.

Sorry dont mean to appear so negative, i realize that it is about our sexual perversions, and i fun with them also ;)

quote:

"that is brought on by the reinforcement of an absolutely core belief developed when young that they may not even fully understand or recognize."


Please explain a little more this interests me.
In this case the Dominant would have to be aware of the core beliefs, and also sensitive to a submissive. Is all fine and dandy having safe words, but what if for some reason a submissive is not able to voice safe words during a scene? What if when the sub is told to have vocal restraints that in their own psyche it has impacted so much that the voice is lost or unable to be retrieved? Or what if they suffered an abusive past that had taken away their voice, and the Dominant isn't actually keeping the sub safe anymore? i am leading away from the 'abusive' Dominant type here, to a less aware type. What if a submissive is so psychologically over ridden from a Dominant that they have no choices in their mind, they don't even know that the fun has stopped and the damage is being done? How can this submissive know when it is time to leave? Or if they try too, they are pushed back down, because the safe word has not been used?
Now, i have tried several searches on this subject but if LA can bring up a list of links i would be happy to read them.



Lashra -> RE: Dominance or Abuse? (8/14/2007 6:05:45 AM)

Abusive dominants need psychological help to unlearn the bad behavior they have learned over the years. Although many of them probably do not view their behavior as abusive, in their own twisted way they view it as "dominance". Submissiveness will not heal these personalities unless they can get them to go to a therapist. I have seen many subs accept abusive behavior from their Dominants and I've often wondered why? This why many Dominants do not change, they do not feel the need too.

No Goddess energy has nothing to do with a strictly submissive personality. Submissiveness is a personality trait that some people have and others do not. Goddess energy is not biased and works through people of all personality types. Positive energy can help to heal I believe, but the person who needs the healing has to accept it on some level.

~Lashra



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Dominance or Abuse? (8/14/2007 7:11:44 AM)

Abusers in general don't see their behavior as wrong- orientation really doesn't matter.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Dominance or Abuse? (8/14/2007 7:17:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChainsandFreedom
LA or anyone else, sorry to bother you with it, but would mind explaining what the differance is? I've never heard the distinction and don't know what you mean.

Orientation- someone's innate drive towards a particular relationship type

Bisexual, homosexual, vanilla, dominant, etc- these are IMO inherent and fairly constant within a person.  It has nothing to do with whether they are IN a relationship, or even what relationship they happen to be in (aka  homosexuals can hide in heterosexual relationships), it has nothing to do with how they act, what their moods are, how they express themselves, dress, talk, or of course, what their personality may be.

Personality to me is a set of aspects about a person combined to create an overall sense of character about the person.  This is completely independent of one's orientation.  A person can have ANY personality with ANY orientation- a slave can and, as you can see on these boards at least, often do have dominant personalities.  Vanillas have submissive or dominant personalities.  Many people have BOTH dominant and submissive aspects to their personalities- again, that has nothing to do with their actual relationship orientation.

The problem comes in when people try and connect the two- then you get questions like "Why can't I be a good leader just because I'm a slave?" or "Why does he think he's a dom when he isn't loud and brash?"  or all sorts of silly things because people are making false connections between personality and orientation.



sophia37 -> RE: Dominance or Abuse? (8/14/2007 7:48:41 AM)

Abusive Dominants are usually not as "dominant" as one might think.  They might instead be "control freaks" Or, petualant, immature,  Passive -Agressive. Any number of things other than dominant, although from an outsiders view, thats how it may look.

Anyone can be called "master". Gepetto the wood carver was called "Master", Im sure.  The word master doesnt automatically mean BDSM.

I think what youre trying to talk about is "enabling". Enabling is pretty hard to recognize and define in ones own self, my opinion.

How can "healing" be brought about to dominant personailities? Theres no healing someone's personility. Thats pretty much natuure. And theres pretty much no stopping someone whos happy with the way they are. Even those that talk about change dont nessasarily want to change. Actions speak louder than words.

Submission is not the route to healing another persons personailty.



ProlificNeeds -> RE: Dominance or Abuse? (8/14/2007 11:42:37 AM)

I fail to see how abuse, commited by a dominant, a submissive, or an alien, is any different. Abuse is abuse, and can be profiled by professional psychologists and doctor types who go to school for many years just so they can make a nice flow chart explaining how your abusive compulsions are related to an incident including peanut butter and popsickle sticks when you were 4.

Abusers need help, usually from a professional type person. Abuse has many forms, methods and focus points, to try and lump sum such a vast area into a few sentances seems unjust, and to try and stereotype a single type of personality assuming they will all abuse the same way, is just foolish.

Example sources you gave are single case scenarios, and presented in a format to be entertaining to the public. Not knocking the lovely Winfry but, it's an entertainment show, it's formatted to jerk you around by the ghoulies and get your attention in some way. If you want to investigate abuse, it's sources and treatments, I'd reccomend going to school for it, mucking around in the affairs of an abuser first hand, more often than not puts you under the wheels of a vehicle with unreliable breaks.

One must also consider the implications of enablers, involving yourself in abusive situations, and trying to 'help' without proper education, may lead you down the path of, hindering recovery, and even becoming an enabler without knowing it. Best advice, abusers should get the best help available to them, from professionals.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Dominance or Abuse? (8/14/2007 11:53:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExquisiteFeline

With everything is BDSM we find those lines, the line between pleasure and pain, the line between power and submission, and the line between Dominance and abuse. Every person has their lines drawn in different places, and what one may consider abuse another may consider pleasure.



I disagree with this.  From all that I have seen, abuse lies more in the consequence than in the act.  Abusive behavior is destructive behavior; the other person's self-esteem is torn down and degraged.  Non-abusive behavior (i.e., "consensual kink") does not damage a person psychologically, and may even build them up.

The distinction between abusive and non-abusive behavior is the response of the submissive.




BeachMystress -> RE: Dominance or Abuse? (8/14/2007 12:10:36 PM)

I've always found the comparison at http://www.sscn.org/abuse.html to be a good way to differentiate. The two parts of it I keep most in mind are:
quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.sscn.org/abuse.html

D/s is about a shared enjoyment of controlled erotic pain and/or humiliation for mutual pleasure. Abuse is about a form of out-of-control physical violence and/or personal or emotional degradation of the submissive.

D/s is about loving each other completely and without reservation in an alternate way. Abuse is hurtful. It is also very damaging emotionally and spiritually to the submissive.

Yes, some people have relationships we don't understand. My own relationship is probably strange to "normal" people. But there is a well drawn line between BDSM and abuse, even if we don't understand the relationship. Abuse damages. BDSM is empowering or emotionally fulfilling to both parties. Yes, it is situational dependant upon the parties involved. We may not understand how being made to roll in the mud and oink like a pig satisfies a deeply hidden need in someone, but we can understand that a person may want and need it. On the other hand, if the person does not want and need such treatment and actually gains psychological scars from being made to do the behaviour, we understand it is abuse.



ChainsandFreedom -> RE: Dominance or Abuse? (8/14/2007 12:36:46 PM)

thanx for the definition LA. Now I understand gay/immigrant republicans better as well as aspects of sexuality. seems like a pretty spot-on charicter break down to me.



dommalemn -> RE: Dominance or Abuse? (8/14/2007 12:49:03 PM)

ORIGINAL: Morsigil


I believe that human beings are inching towards equality, and this inequality will be looked back on with disgust and disbelief just like the majority (at least outwardly, for the time being) look back on slavery and racism. I think that we've been moving towards equality since they day the human race was capable of recognizing that the impact they have on others can affect them as well.

Submission and control has nothing to do with anything besides our sexual perversions in my opinion. It can be spiritual for some, sure, but what I see in most people who are experiencing submission or dominance is a joy and peace of mind and body that is brought on by the reinforcement of an absolutely core belief developed when young that they may not even fully understand or recognize. Humbleness. Vulnerability, and reliance on another can teach humility, and so it can be taught through submission for some, but not everyone.

Anyone agree?


Morsigil:

You make a good point. Equality should be imposed right away. Why should woman be permitted to stay home with the kids, They should be forced to support the family. They should not be the only ones to have ums. Seeing that you are submissive(though not permitted  in an equality) you should have to carry and give birth to the ums. That is just a start one could go on and on. Then that would not be equality, That would be someone controlling what you could do.

Equality is a concept made up to put someone down.  An example... you have a household where the husband works and the wife stays home and runs household (as a unite this works together smoothly). Each is one part of the hole. No one part will function as well with out the other. Neither one in more important than the other just different. Then another that despises it( wither they need more employees so they don’t have to pay high wages or they had relationships that abusive) starts to say that one part is not as equal as the other part. Is cleaning the house equal to ditch digging. how can you tell with out it being a paid job.. Now the deal is that both need to work to be an equal part in some state of equality. So to be in the equality thing both need to have the same role.

Now to your comment on submission and control being only a sexual perversion. It must be hard to drive or do anything out side the home. All around me is things that I must submit to, exp. Stop signs, speed limits , and the cop giving me a ticket if I do not submit to the laws. I would not call that sensual perversion(even though you seem to, not judging anyone here if this is one of their sensual perversions). Also submission and control come into effect when we do things in groups (two or more), one takes control of a choice and the rest submit to that choice. Oh in equality we would have to do all or non.




Alumbrado -> RE: Dominance or Abuse? (8/14/2007 1:07:08 PM)

An abuser who demands to be called 'Master' is no more a Dom, than an abuser who tortures small animals is a scientist.



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