RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered

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Sinergy -> RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered (8/12/2007 7:53:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SV1000 [sm=confused.gif]Not speaking directly about the draft but on a similar note, I pose a question. Is military service really all that bad. I look at so many young men and women today and consider the experience they could use with having to go through a disciplined lifestyle even if it's just for boot camp. I'd be the first to say the military isn't for a lot of people. However, it does force a bit of responsibility and maturaty to be considered in one's life. Many other countries require either college or military service. Would that be such a bad thing for the U.S.? What do you think?[sm=whiteflag.gif] I have always supported those in the military, SV1000. It is a great job, a wonderful learning experience for people, great benefits, looks nice on a resume, etc. I have posted previously that requiring military service in the US, while a great thing for the person, is not relevant to the nature and structure of the US military. Until the Clusterf*ck in Iraq, we did not need vast numbers of men on the ground. When we finally go bankrupt as a nation and leave Iraq with our tail between our legs, we will no longer need a vastly swollen set of ground forces. I have also posted that there should be something required for (a la Heinlein) a person to do to put the body politic ahead of themselves. Military, road crews, medical experimentation, etc., in order to be granted citizenship. Doing so would empty out most of our elected officials who did not offer to take one for the team. Sinergy

sharainks -> RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered (8/12/2007 8:02:06 AM)
Sure, as long as the Bush daughters are the first ones drafted. Of course that will never happen, nor will it happen that the sons and daughters of our "elected leaders" go to Iraq either. I think voting for reinstating the draft is a good way to ensure that you don't get in for another term.

xBullx -> RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered (8/12/2007 8:02:42 AM)
Howdy Sinergy, I know I have a gift for pissing folks off. I also have a gift for being direct to a fault. My comment wasn't meant to send you into a vigil of self protection. quote: I dont think it is about the homosexual agenda directly, although there is a connection. I ASKED (denote the question mark) if you thought that homosexuality might not be a bit petty as the reason not to inact a draft. You answered that question in this one comment. I'll the other comments about suspicion of a personal attack is a tad paranoid. I wasn't aware that I didn't like you, I had rather thought I did. But I digress, I was in the service a long time and could give a shit what sexual organ someone is planting their lips on, so long as they have the concept of aim and squeeze the trigger of their government issued weapon down pat. The only comment that bit me a little bit is the one about "getting out of their quick". I prefer the comment of "let's get this right quick". We did the get out quick with the first Bush, that served us well, wouldn't you say? I know I have been and most likely will be hard on folks and sometimes call them out, it happens to me as well. Did you know, all I am after a some young hotties with my time here?........... Yeah, neither did I. I don't know how you can disagree with a path to get to someplace I have yet to take, I'd like to know all the reasons I myself think caused this problem. It's much bigger than some damn religious dispute. Ever notice the three sides to every story dilemma. His, mine and the truth. I have yet to fully uncover even my own truth in this mess. Though I have a suspicion or ten. I sure wasn't hurling anything. At least I didn't think I was. If I accidently conked you in the noggin, sorry about that. Live well, Bull

Sinergy -> RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered (8/12/2007 8:09:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx I know I have a gift for pissing folks off. I also have a gift for being direct to a fault. My comment wasn't meant to send you into a vigil of self protection. xBullx, You do not have the power to do anything to me. I would suggest you take a moment to consider the difference between a "direct" comment and an "insult." I am extremely direct. What I avoid doing is applying words to an entire group of other people, particularly ones I do not know. There are very few contexts in which a statement applied to somebody as being part of a "group of whiners" would not be considered an insult, and this sort of gratuitous slur tends to reflect poorly on the person making it. It also tends to take a general topic on a message board and results in a verbal slugfest which is tangential and irrelevant to the topic being discussed. Enjoy your day. Sinergy

farglebargle -> RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered (8/12/2007 8:20:14 AM)
quote: Why is it our problem? Good question quote: Let's just ponder several names.......Isreal, Sadam, The Shah, Beruit, Hostage, Bin Laden in the Russian/Afgan years. Should we continue? I think you've illustrated clearly that the problem is an interventionist US foreign policy. quote: This is just the trash heap dumped in Bush's lap Bush owns the million dead in Iraq since it took it over from Hussein. quote: , and until we start acting like responsible adults and facing OUR problems, drafts, cut and runs, bombs or lying ass politicians are of no value. We have to establish credibility and people have to know we mean what we say and that we aren't simply in this for ourselves. Credibility with whom? The non-existent unified Iraqi government? Or the tribal chieftans? With the Kurds or the Turks? Because if you establish credibility with the Kurds, the Turks are going to be PISSED. quote: Are we a modern Sparta (300) Did you ever see this thing? The Constitution of the United States? We are a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC. quote: You really want to win this war, The OCCUPATION of Iraq is unwinnable, excepting killing everyone there and repopulating it with Americans. See about about the Constitution. quote: make you noise about No more oil usage, make the cars and trucks that burn alternative fuels, create an infrastructure that can maintain these new forms of transport. You want to stop the Iranians and Hugo from driving the enemies of the west forward. CUT THEIR PURSE STRINGS. It might take awhile, but that's nothing new. It COULD HAVE BEEN DONE for less money than we've spent-to-date in Iraq, and using 1980's technology. But of course, by not doing that, Bush has proven he considers ExxonMobil's profits are more important than our national security, and to the point, the lives of our kids serving there, and the lives of the indigenous hominids resident.

farglebargle -> RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered (8/12/2007 8:21:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx Kinda petty to think this is all about the homo sexual agenda isn't it? Bull It's less petty than not letting openly gay people serve honorably.

xBullx -> RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered (8/12/2007 10:24:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy You do not have the power to do anything to me. If you say so. It does seem rather odd how you are wasting all this effort assuminhg that I am of no concern and have little significance as an opposing powerbase. And most certainly since I do believe I attempted to clarlify I wasn't attempting to insult you, merely asking you a singal question. But have it your way. quote: I would suggest you take a moment to consider the difference between a "direct" comment and an "insult." Perhaps you should take a moment to consider your seemingly tender sensibilities. I'll define futher after your next quote. quote: I am extremely direct. What I avoid doing is applying words to an entire group of other people, particularly ones I do not know. There are very few contexts in which a statement applied to somebody as being part of a "group of whiners" would not be considered an insult, and this sort of gratuitous slur tends to reflect poorly on the person making it. Actually, and this is only an opinion, I do assume I am intitled to those; folks aren't all that direct when they are worried about political correctness and what precious sensibilities they mighgt be offending of some hypothetical group of folks such as whiners. Do remember the old adage, if the shoe fits. Your insistance to be included with this group leaves me little recourse but to accept your postion. I'm curious though, as "I" wasn't directing my intentions to you as being a said whiner; do you think that you have a matter of concscience at heart here? Again just a question to consider, not an alligation in point. quote: It also tends to take a general topic on a message board and results in a verbal slugfest which is tangential and irrelevant to the topic being discussed. As all I had intially done was to ask you a single question as to which you chose to expand on and make this a much broader agenda, prehaps you should consider taking your own advise. But thanks for your condescending attempt to lecture me. I wonder if that was supposed to be an olive branch? Bull

LotusSong -> RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered (8/12/2007 10:29:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level I saw this report earlier.... if the draft were brought back, I wonder how the public would react? Constipation across America would be cured. (EVERYBODY is gonna shit!)

LotusSong -> RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered (8/12/2007 10:31:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Yay, I'm all for it. Let's draft Jenna Bush to suck PFC cock in the rec room. I believe she already volunteered.. and is still waiting for her first taker....

xBullx -> RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered (8/12/2007 10:59:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle I think you've illustrated clearly that the problem is an interventionist US foreign policy. Not just interventionist, but also the fact we start and stir and then turn our back and act as if it isn't our problem when the going gets tough. So it is far more than a simple case of "you started it". quote: Bush owns the million dead in Iraq since it took it over from Hussein. You like your cake and then be able to eat it too, don't you? So I take it tht you are a foriegn national? You have no accountability or responsibility as an American? Bush did this all alone? No one before and no one after has any guilt to bear? Now listen close, I am a long way from being a Bush apologist. In fact I'm sure he or someone on his staff might be sick of my emails. Bush owns them in just above average to equal amount as we do as all Americans. It is our country, it is our responsibility. Make sure you read all the charters of the paper you are carrying on about, hell there's a thread about gun control that hits these points quite well. Isn't it impressive how the worlds problems are always someone elses fault. quote: Credibility with whom? The non-existent unified Iraqi government? Or the tribal chieftans? With the Kurds or the Turks? Because if you establish credibility with the Kurds, the Turks are going to be PISSED. Excuse me friend, but don't confuse credibility as men(gender neutral term in this instance) with popularity. I have no trouble finding credibility in someones actions and words if they are sound and just. I do not have to like them to respect the context of an action or statement. quote: Did you ever see this thing? The Constitution of the United States? We are a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC. Actually yes I have seen it. I think you missed my point and rather than continue the hijack that is may have been seen as I'll say just this...We are not the founding fathers of democracy. But I'll bet you knew that. quote: The OCCUPATION of Iraq is unwinnable, excepting killing everyone there and repopulating it with Americans. See about about the Constitution. When are you SP's going to stop with this we can't win. We already won a war, the Tyrant is gone. (and dispense with the cracks about Bush) We are now supposed to be stabilizing the mess that we unleashed. Was it the lack of foresight that caused it....You Damn Right it was. But none the less, we're there, it was our lack of vision and now our lack of unity that extends the problem. I'm curious as to whether you have been to this region. You think killing everyone is the only answer? That's rather forward thinking of you. One of my best friends just finished his tour over there and his unit helped finish 6 schools. Those that teach education excersizes in math, history, science, so on and so on....Not the ones that are in the mosks teaching some young man to hate an American just because he is an American. But I doubt you care about that. Children learning the basics of understanding and tolerence. In the end you can't blame Bush for everything, it takes away from the credibility of your argument. quote: It COULD HAVE BEEN DONE for less money than we've spent-to-date in Iraq, and using 1980's technology. But of course, by not doing that, Bush has proven he considers ExxonMobil's profits are more important than our national security, and to the point, the lives of our kids serving there, and the lives of the indigenous hominids resident. Hindsight is 20/20 and makes everyone look like they had the answers. I sure as hell don't think Bush has made all the right moves, but where was all this good advise before the war? Let's stop casting blame and get this shit right and throwing the remainder of the Iraqi people to the wolves in my opinion is even more irresponsible than the shit that started this war. You do realize that men women and innocent children, little boys and girls and babies will be slaughtered if we just bail on OUR mistake. Not that I see it as a mistake, only part of the execution, the political execution in fact has been a mistake, in fact a seemingly never ending series of mistakes. So like Vietnam if this war is a loss, it is lost again in the city of Washington. So that leaves it in the hands of our career politicians once again. ALL of them, past present and future. Ohhhh, don't forget who elects them politicians while you're passing out this blame. Good luck shaving in the morning. Bull

cyberdude611 -> RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered (8/12/2007 11:41:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I'm not in favor of a draft. 100% required national military service with no ability to defer or otherwise protect anyone from combat is something I'm completely in favor of. The day the graduating class of Grosse Pointe South High School marches onto a troop train bound for boot camp is the day our involvement in the Iraqi civil war ends. Historically, that doesnt exactly work to end wars. Israel has this type of conscription in place right now where everyone has to serve. It has not decreased their aggressiveness, and it has not decreased their military spending. And I dont believe that the majority of our youth are cowards. Even most of the "chickenhawks" say they will go if drafted....

farglebargle -> RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered (8/12/2007 3:04:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle I think you've illustrated clearly that the problem is an interventionist US foreign policy. Not just interventionist, but also the fact we start and stir and then turn our back and act as if it isn't our problem when the going gets tough. So it is far more than a simple case of "you started it". When the supposed leaders are just too unsophisticated to understand the situation and its implications in the broader contexts, it's best they FIRST, DO NO HARM "trying" to make it better. I'd call the million dead in Iraq since Hussein's ouster to be pretty fucking harmful. quote: quote: Bush owns the million dead in Iraq since it took it over from Hussein. You like your cake and then be able to eat it too, don't you? So I take it tht you are a foriegn national? You have no accountability or responsibility as an American? Bush did this all alone? No, he had help in his criminal conspiracy to deprive Congress of their lawful role in oversight. Once you commit crimes, you own the results of your crimes wholly. quote: quote: No one before and no one after has any guilt to bear? Now listen close, I am a long way from being a Bush apologist. In fact I'm sure he or someone on his staff might be sick of my emails. Bush owns them in just above average to equal amount as we do as all Americans. It is our country, it is our responsibility. You think so? What Senators pick up your call directly when the staff informs them of your call? Stop deluding yourself. quote: quote: Credibility with whom? The non-existent unified Iraqi government? Or the tribal chieftans? With the Kurds or the Turks? Because if you establish credibility with the Kurds, the Turks are going to be PISSED. Excuse me friend, but don't confuse credibility as men(gender neutral term in this instance) with popularity. I have no trouble finding credibility in someones actions and words if they are sound and just. I do not have to like them to respect the context of an action or statement. I'm not your friend. At best we are casual acquaintances. Ok, DON'T answer the question. You cannot support the Kurds without pissing off the Turks. Which side do you take, and how do you explain it to the parties alienated? quote: quote: Did you ever see this thing? The Constitution of the United States? We are a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC. Actually yes I have seen it. I think you missed my point and rather than continue the hijack that is may have been seen as I'll say just this...We are not the founding fathers of democracy. But I'll bet you knew that. We are EXACTLY EQUAL to them, and JUST AS RESPONSIBLE for ensuring fidelity to the Declaration of Independence. quote: quote: The OCCUPATION of Iraq is unwinnable, excepting killing everyone there and repopulating it with Americans. See about about the Constitution. When are you SP's going to stop with this we can't win. We already won a war, the Tyrant is gone. (and dispense with the cracks about Bush) We are now supposed to be stabilizing the mess that we unleashed. Was it the lack of foresight that caused it....You Damn Right it was. If you accept Bush's excuse that the end-result is all some sort of accident, then I guess there's not rational discussion possible. quote: But none the less, we're there, it was our lack of vision and now our lack of unity that extends the problem. Unity is for fucking Socialists and Commies quote: I'm curious as to whether you have been to this region. You think killing everyone is the only answer? Actually, no. And it's funny that you mischaractorize my response in that way. Killing everyone and replacing them is the ONLY WAY the naive, unsophisticated, immature concept of a UNIFIED Iraqi government will ever come about. They DO NOT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT UNIFICATION. The Kurds WANT TO BE SEPARATE. The Shiia WANT TO BE SEPARATE and the Sunni WANT TO BE SEPARATE. But, you know, 4000 years of history can easily be ignored when some retard like Bush gets a hardon for some sort of "White Mans Burden" freedom kick. quote: quote: That's rather forward thinking of you. One of my best friends just finished his tour over there and his unit helped finish 6 schools. I'd like to chat with the teachers. What's their email addresses at those schools? It's been FOUR YEARS since the occupation began? What's the problem? quote: quote: Those that teach education excersizes in math, history, science, so on and so on....Not the ones that are in the mosks teaching some young man to hate an American just because he is an American. But I doubt you care about that. Children learning the basics of understanding and tolerence. In the end you can't blame Bush for everything, it takes away from the credibility of your argument. How's that "Understanding and Tolerance" shit working out in AMERICAN SCHOOLS? Not so good, eh? When did the kumbaya singing, pot smoking hippies take over the Iraqi Department of Education? quote: quote: It COULD HAVE BEEN DONE for less money than we've spent-to-date in Iraq, and using 1980's technology. But of course, by not doing that, Bush has proven he considers ExxonMobil's profits are more important than our national security, and to the point, the lives of our kids serving there, and the lives of the indigenous hominids resident. Hindsight is 20/20 It's not hindsight. It's 1970's thinking and 1980's technology. quote: and makes everyone look like they had the answers. I sure as hell don't think Bush has made all the right moves, but where was all this good advise before the war? Scott Ritter was talking, were you listening? quote: Let's stop casting blame and get this shit right and throwing the remainder of the Iraqi people to the wolves You have a point. Give EVERY IRAQI an ak47 and a few hundred rounds of ammo THEN COME HOME. They'll have the tools they need to ensure THEIR PERSONAL SECURITY, and there's nothing more we can do if they're too feeble-minded to do what's needed. quote: in my opinion is even more irresponsible than the shit that started this war. You do realize that men women and innocent children, little boys and girls and babies will be slaughtered if we just bail on OUR mistake. Meh. US Troops are raping and murdering children, so it's hard to see how you can HONESTLY be concerned.

xBullx -> RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered (8/12/2007 4:39:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle When the supposed leaders are just too unsophisticated to understand the situation and its implications in the broader contexts, it's best they FIRST, DO NO HARM "trying" to make it better. I'd call the million dead in Iraq since Hussein's ouster to be pretty fucking harmful. Your right the Bush team or whatever they call themselves have proven down right incompetent a majority of the time. The same was said about Lincoln prior to Grant, Ohhh, and that Washington fellow, damn was he ever a fuck up prior to the likes of Von Stueben and others. I have a solution, let's stop voting for the idiots. Any ideas on who isn't an idiot this week? Well, besides you of course. This million dead thing is interesting, you think a million dead is a terrible thing when it suites your side of an argument, yet when it comes to the pull out, and fuck'em, who cares how many kill themselves. That's ok then? I suppose we should leave the whole region to the extremists and Iran to control. Their less than credible motives should surely have control of all the oil that the SP's care so little about, well, at least until their gas goes up. I in a world where none of the leaders have credibility I should at least try and support the fuck tards that are supposedly on my side. Even if they are greedy pigs that you dispise. quote: No, he had help in his criminal conspiracy to deprive Congress of their lawful role in oversight. Once you commit crimes, you own the results of your crimes wholly. While you might be right, I'm not sure. On one hand you say he's to stupid and incompetent to lead this nation yet he's sharp enough to concoct a conspiracy that had us all fooled. Kinda leaves us all looking rather astute wouldn't you say? As far as the conspiracy goes, get something solid and avoid the speculation, it taints your objectivity and puts a serious blemish on your credibility. Hense leaving your theory void of substance and merit. quote: You think so? What Senators pick up your call directly when the staff informs them of your call? Stop deluding yourself. You do have a bit of trouble reading my print don't you. SHOULD I ENLARGE IT. I never mentioned a Senator to you here. I stated that I send emails to our public officials when I'm displeased, and even sometimes when I'm pleased. I mentioned the President in this case. I never stated I call anyone, hell I'm just a small fish on a huge sea. I wouldn't even waist my time on a call. Though I tend to get at least generic thank yous in response to my emails. So, no delusions here. thanks for caring though quote: Credibility with whom? The non-existent unified Iraqi government? Or the tribal chieftans? With the Kurds or the Turks? Because if you establish credibility with the Kurds, the Turks are going to be PISSED. Credibility in ones word has little to do with friendships. All credibility consists of is living up to ones words and actions NO matter those words or actions. It is all the lying and underhandedness that our present day politicians seem to think is standard operating proceedure that causes the issues of who is pissed at who, I would have thought you were old enough to understand that. Credibility has nothing to do with popularity. The Turks or whoever might be pissed about you having an ally that is not common with they, but if they trust you at your word and you say that you will not agress them, well.....I hope you are starting to understand a little better. Talk may be cheap nowadays, but it can hold merit if the right man speaks it. We have tarnished our credibility over the years, it's either time to start to recover it, or we just keep suffering the pain of its short coming. Rhome wasn't built in a day so to speak. quote: I'm not your friend. At best we are casual acquaintances. Ok, DON'T answer the question. You cannot support the Kurds without pissing off the Turks. Which side do you take, and how do you explain it to the parties alienated? Ok, were not friends then, do remember it was you that insisted on as much. I did answer the question, you just didn't like the answer. You take the side that serves your best interest. YOUR OWN side. Just live up to your words, let you actions reflect truth. All the bullshit political correctness is the causer of the problems I'd say. Ever think of actually stating your postition and tell folks what you really think. Lies inspire lies that are made to cover other lies..... Blah, blah, blah........ If we truely aren't trying to govern everyone elses affairs only look after our own interests, well, how damn hard can that be. quote: We are EXACTLY EQUAL to them, and JUST AS RESPONSIBLE for ensuring fidelity to the Declaration of Independence. Again you missed the point....The United States are not the founders of Democracy. Do you think we have that market cornered, that no one outside of here can get it. They voted their ass off in Iraq, I'd say the populice would like to have a democracy and a few left over radical tyrants that stand to loose the most are fighting for their very survival....Ever trap a rat? quote: If you accept Bush's excuse that the end-result is all some sort of accident, then I guess there's not rational discussion possible. I accept nothing blindly, again you are missing my point for the struggle to prove your own. I hold Bush accountable for his fuck ups. I always will. I have held evryone in my life accountable as such. To include myself. My point is that all that ailes you begins with the man in the mirror. That would be you. If you can't see clearly within your own line of sight I doubt you will have much success outside of it. quote: Unity is for fucking Socialists and Commies No unity is for any winning team...I believe in this country you claim to be a member of it was once said, "United we stand, divided we fall." Do you suppose those terrorists have read some of those same one liners and have gotten a clue that you seem unaware of. I'm all for checks and balances, I DEMAND Congress keep the President and Supreme Court in line. I also demand that they do it in a way that actually premotes leadership and not some third grade school yard debate about who's the best and in an attempt to establish short term political gains they destroy the very essence of what should make this country great. Washington has divided this country in their struggle with greed and their attempt to seize political power. And we allow the distractions and tactical deversions to take our eye off the ball. Look at the obvious and know that is most likely not the truth in todays world. Sadly, the last man to try and hold those in Washington accountable was that damn Gopher from the Love Boat. If you need help with this, that's another story. quote: Actually, no. And it's funny that you mischaractorize my response in that way. Killing everyone and replacing them is the ONLY WAY the naive, unsophisticated, immature concept of a UNIFIED Iraqi government will ever come about. There would be nothing funny about doing that in a discussion, it would achieve nothing sincere. I only commented on the exact thing you said. I wonder if perhaps it might take longer to get this constitution for Iraq made and if a Government might take awhile? Perhaps the political pressure to hurry this fledgling Democracy along in a part of the world where it has never existed, (at least to my knowledge) perhaps we hurried it in the name of political progress. You stated it, their are three sects that have hated one another for thousands of years. But they voted, the people that is, they had hope. I hope they still do. I would love to come out of this being someone that the children of Iraq believe in. That we didn't leave them to be tortured and be killed in thier homes. The only thing on this planet that stands between appathy and evil are good men. quote: They DO NOT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT UNIFICATION. The Kurds WANT TO BE SEPARATE. The Shiia WANT TO BE SEPARATE and the Sunni WANT TO BE SEPARATE. That may be true of those that are not afraid to speak in this war torn hell. But again why did they risk death to vote? Did they have hope? Are we part of that hope? If we stay and help create a solid existance, will that start to repair our credibility? I know if we tuck tail and run, it will only feed to further international distrust and it will be obvious that all you have to do to get America to run is divided them politically and conquer them. We might not be defeatable on the battlefield, but what about in the hearts of supposed men. Have you ever started to think that the sects are now starting to scramble for everything and anything they can get? It looks like the Americans are running again. Why not leave anothe rtyrant in charge that we'll be fighting again another day. quote: But, you know, 4000 years of history can easily be ignored when some retard like Bush gets a hardon for some sort of "White Mans Burden" freedom kick. Europe and Rhome, Greece and Egypt had thousands of years of history before they had changes in their thinking. Just because something has always been one way doesn't mean we should accept it. If that were the case, would you have been a Lord or a common? quote: I'd like to chat with the teachers. What's their email addresses at those schools? It's been FOUR YEARS since the occupation began? What's the problem? I said he built the schools, he's credible enough to the fact I believe he did what he said. But come on, what are the chance I actually have the emails to those schools. Surely this distraction tactic will serve you better in another thread. You are impatient? You want, what you want and you want it now? You said it has been this way for 4000 years, and your pissed with the results of 4 years? quote: How's that "Understanding and Tolerance" shit working out in AMERICAN SCHOOLS? Not so good, eh? When did the kumbaya singing, pot smoking hippies take over the Iraqi Department of Education? Yeah, now there is a good point, maybe we can get the Japanese to help us with the educational subject matter. Or who is the number one country in Education now? quote: It's not hindsight. It's 1970's thinking and 1980's technology. Yes it is hindsight, to armchair quarterback this war after the fact is nothing but hindsight. I said he made mistakes, so why dwell on something that is past. Fix the problem and let's move forward. quote: Scott Ritter was talking, were you listening? I guess I wasn't, I had the taste of blood in my mouth too I reckon. Why doesn't he speak a little louder? quote: You have a point. Give EVERY IRAQI an ak47 and a few hundred rounds of ammo THEN COME HOME. They'll have the tools they need to ensure THEIR PERSONAL SECURITY, and there's nothing more we can do if they're too feeble-minded to do what's needed. That's rather interesting how you broke a quote in mid sentence so you could distort it to suit your purpose. Weren't you lecturing me about context at the start of this post. quote: Meh. US Troops are raping and murdering children, so it's hard to see how you can HONESTLY be concerned. Ahhh, those terrible troops of ours, I do believe that we at least hold our ownb accountable to some degree. Don't give me that one bad apple shit. The mass majority of our boys are doing out-fucking-standing work. Do you just debate because your lonely and have nothing else to do? If so, you need to improve if you want to find success, because a few errored that leaves the whole as rotten? Come now stranger...Ohhhh, stranger is now my choice for you...And do remember, I'm a Gorean............ Bull

farglebargle -> RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered (8/12/2007 5:30:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle When the supposed leaders are just too unsophisticated to understand the situation and its implications in the broader contexts, it's best they FIRST, DO NO HARM "trying" to make it better. I'd call the million dead in Iraq since Hussein's ouster to be pretty fucking harmful. Your right the Bush team or whatever they call themselves have proven down right incompetent a majority of the time. The same was said about Lincoln prior to Grant, Ohhh, and that Washington fellow, damn was he ever a fuck up prior to the likes of Von Stueben and others. I have a solution, let's stop voting for the idiots. Any ideas on who isn't an idiot this week? Well, besides you of course. You think voting matters? Weren't you paying attention in 2000 when Bush went whining to the USSC, and they handed him the win? Of course, we now have the ENTIRE STATE OF CALIFORNIA rejecting the machines used in 2004, once they've been proven, each and every one, vulnerable to the stupidest of flaws. But I see where you're coming from... You're a "Believer". You believe the bullshit. quote: This million dead thing is interesting, you think a million dead is a terrible thing when it suites your side of an argument, yet when it comes to the pull out, and fuck'em, who cares how many kill themselves. What section and clause of the Constitution makes the security of Iraq my fucking problem? Oh, NOTHING delegates "Nation Building" authority to the Feds. Then YOU better get busy amending the Constitution to support your Socialist-Pinko-Do-Gooder-Hippie nation building dreams. quote: That's ok then? I suppose we should leave the whole region to the extremists and Iran to control. Pretty much. Get back to me when someone's driving a T-72 down the Adirondack Northway. You see, unlike some, I am brave enough to accept the risks of OTHER PEOPLE having Freedom and Liberty. quote: Their less than credible motives should surely have control of all the oil that the SP's care so little about, well, at least until their gas goes up. I in a world where none of the leaders have credibility I should at least try and support the fuck tards that are supposedly on my side. Even if they are greedy pigs that you dispise. You must have missed the part about how for less money than Bush wasted in Iraq, and using 1980's technology, we wouldn't FUCKING NEED ANY FUCKING OIL? And the neglect in doing that was Bush's REAL damage to our National Security. quote: quote: No, he had help in his criminal conspiracy to deprive Congress of their lawful role in oversight. Once you commit crimes, you own the results of your crimes wholly. While you might be right, I'm not sure. On one hand you say he's to stupid and incompetent to lead this nation yet he's sharp enough to concoct a conspiracy that had us all fooled. Kinda leaves us all looking rather astute wouldn't you say? What do you call a campaign of lies, 1/2 truths and misrepresentations, and withheld information, specifically calculated to deprive Congress of their oversight ability? I call it a violation of 18 USC 371, myself. That's a felony. quote: As far as the conspiracy goes, get something solid and avoid the speculation, it taints your objectivity and puts a serious blemish on your credibility. Hense leaving your theory void of substance and merit. Well, SINCE YOU ASKED: Let's see, first, if we can agree on this simple statement of facts, let me know if you have any specific issues, and what they are. If you have none, we can move on to the other facts-in-evidence and overt actions contributing to my allegations. Here you go: 1. The primary law of the United States Federal Government was set forth in the U.S. Constitution ("Constitution"), which provides that the first branch of government is the Legislative Branch ("Congress"). Pursuant to Article I, Section 8, Congress has certain powers and obligations regarding oversight of foreign affairs, including the powers to: (1) declare war; (2) raise and support the armed forces; and (3) tax and spend for the common good. 2. Article II of the Constitution establishes the Executive Branch. The Executive Power of the United States is vested in the President, who is also the Commander in Chief of the Armed Services. 3. Defendant GEORGE W. BUSH ("BUSH") has been employed as President of the United States since January 20, 2001. On that day, BUSH took a constitutionally mandated oath to faithfully execute the Office of President and to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution. BUSH is also constitutionally obligated to take care that the laws be faithfully executed. 4. As Chief Executive, BUSH exercised authority, direction, and control over the entire Executive Branch, which includes the White House, the Office of the Vice President, the Departments of State, Defense, and others, and the National Security Council. 5. Defendant RICHARD B. CHENEY ("CHENEY") has been employed as Vice President of the United States since January 20, 2001. 6. Defendant CONDOLEEZZA RICE ("RICE") was employed as the National Security Adviser from January 2001 to January 2005, when she became Secretary of State, a position she holds as of the date of this indictment. As National Security Adviser, RICE exercised direction, control, and authority over the National Security Council, which coordinates various national security and foreign policy agencies, including the Departments of Defense and State. 7. Defendant DONALD M. RUMSFELD ("RUMSFELD") has been employed as Secretary of Defense since January 2001. 8. Defendant COLIN M. POWELL ("POWELL") was employed as Secretary of State from January 2001 through January of 2005. 9. Before assuming their offices, CHENEY, RICE, RUMSFELD and POWELL took an oath to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution. 10. As employees of the Executive Branch, BUSH, CHENEY, RICE, RUMSFELD, and POWELL were governed by Executive Orders 12674 and 12731. These Orders provide that Executive Branch employees hold their positions as a public trust and that the American people have a right to expect that they will fulfill that trust in accordance with certain ethical standards and principles. These include abiding by the Constitution and laws of the United States, as well as not using their offices to further private goals and interests. 11. Pursuant to the Constitution, their oaths of office, their status as Executive Branch employees, and their presence in the United States, BUSH, CHENEY, RICE, RUMSFELD, and POWELL, and their subordinates and employees, are required to obey Title 18, United States Code, Section 371, which prohibits conspiracies to defraud the United States. 12. As used in Section 371, the term "to defraud the United States" means "to interfere with or obstruct one of its lawful government functions by deceit, craft, trickery, or at least by means that are dishonest." The term also means to "impair, obstruct, or defeat the lawful function of any department of government" by the use of "false or fraudulent pretenses or representations." 13. A "false" or "fraudulent" representation is one that is: (a) made with knowledge that it is untrue; (b) a half-truth; (c) made without a reasonable basis or with reckless indifference as to whether it is, in fact, true or false; or (d) literally true, but intentionally presented in a manner reasonably calculated to deceive a person of ordinary prudence and intelligence. The knowing concealment or omission of information that a reasonable person would consider important in deciding an issue also constitutes fraud. 14. Congress is a "department of the United States" within the meaning of Section 371. In addition, hearings regarding funding for military action and authorization to use military force are "lawful functions" of Congress. 15. Accordingly, the presentation of information to Congress and the general public through deceit, craft, trickery, dishonest means, and fraudulent representations, including lies, half-truths, material omissions, and statements made with reckless indifference to their truth or falsity, while knowing and intending that such fraudulent representations would influence Congress' decisions regarding authorization to use military force and funding for military action, constitutes interfering with, obstructing, impairing, and defeating a lawful government function of a department of the United States within the meaning of Section 371. ANY PROBLEMS WITH THAT OR SHALL WE CONTINUE?

xBullx -> RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered (8/12/2007 6:19:36 PM)
Farglebargle, Before you go off on your tangent here let's revisit one fact. I am not a Bush apologist. I have concurred with many of his short comings, I have yet to see anything that someone has the nads to stick to him, so anything short of action is spectulation and does little more than to divide the nation at a time of war. I have actually worked hard to find a suitable replacement for him in all the candidates running, and I do mean all. And of all of them, I can't even find a good bathroom attendant. So I am afraid it will be business as usual in good ole D.C. And in the end that is my point, the accountability starts with each of us. What have you done lately? Now, if Bush fucked up and you can get him, by all means, have at it, I wouldn't stand in the way, I have sons and friends defending this nation. I would rather they were home. But coffee shop rhetoric serves no one but the enemy. If you have something push your Congressperson or your Senator. Pester the hell out of them, I do. I'm not on some protect Bush bandwagon here, so you're wasting your breath. I'm on the I'm an American bandwagon....I'm tired of men that sweat and bleed making a Nation we can be proud of and a few greedy cocksuckers trashing our good name, and no one truely holding them accountable. We made a fuckin' mess and we need to rectify it. It has nothing to do with articles, charters amendments. It has to do with good men making a wrong right. So leaving folks to be slaughtered do to our short sightedness is not only counter productive, but a question of our human condition. For christs sakes, Bob Barker gives more of a shit about puppies than we seem to people. If you don't give a fuck about human life, that is your choice. It's also your choice to speak against giving a shit about those people. It's mine to speak for them too. GW made them our business whether you like it or not. In fact whether I like it or not. Those children aren't of my home stone, but my home stone made a commitment to them. Now I can value my honor, or I can choose not too, same as you. Let's give the thread back to the folks that want to discuss the OP and not force our ideas on the one another. We can make a deal. You don't come to my aid and I'll leave you to your own recourse. Now That's a path of least resistance that any SP can adhere too. Right? Besides your words here have already said in great measure as to what degree I as a fellow man could depend on you. Live well, Bull

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered (8/12/2007 9:05:46 PM)
Draft may add bodies, but as Bull said, their moral will be piss poor if they are being made to do it. Also, the US weakness for insurgents is proven yet again. Any enemy that wishes to truly beat us anywhere, except at home, has only to mount an insurgency, and eventually we will cave in. Has anyone ever read the military view of the three stages of insurgency? Well it looks like we are in phase three, so just after the surge (which will cause many insurgents to go to ground), you will see actually more attacks and deaths. The way many Americans are, the conclusion was almost guaranteed from the beginning. The US public is pansies, when it comes to what is needed to do the job. The problem I have is that the admin knew this of the American people, so they should have had an exit strategy, should have had alot of short term goals, and we should have just left the country in the stone age. At least then, when we tell a country to not declare us an enemy or we will bomb them into the stone age, it will stick. Also, I just finished reading several studies that show we can fight against the insurgents with technology, so withdraswing the bulk, and leaving offshore strike teams available, will still allow us to strike where we need to. The problem now is that the Iraqi government has recognized some militias, that actually support and have many insurgents in them, so we cannot do much against them. Let the Men there do what they can during the surge and a stablization plan afterwards. lock down Bagdad, huge amount of check points manned by Iraqi's, and allow the troops to reduce number, and used for non policing strikes. Then use smart bombs to take out insurgent strong points, but we will have to suck up the civilian deaths that occur. If we shift the problem to make it Iran's problem, it will likely strain that government and weaken it. What a fucking quagmire, with very few win situations from the point we are now. Orion

Owner59 -> RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered (8/12/2007 10:53:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx -fast reply- Is this the best you guys can say about this. We don't need a draft, throw some more coin in the kitty and the recruits will turn up in groves. Hell they have managed to beat the rural and urban ecomy to death with rirdiculous fuel prices. Even if you have a job in the civilian sector you can't afford to drive to the damn thing. The military is a good job where your bedroom is at work. For the young folk anyway. Besides, I don't want a conscript with me if I don't have to. They tend to have terrible attitudes. Kinda like you all do. I have a son taking off to Iraq next week. Well, to his Kuwait refresher course on the IEDs and tactical adjustments and then into the sandbox. The unit that just returned had an exceptional retention rate, it seems these big bonus incentives are the key, so perhaps the combat duty isn't as scary for our warriors as it is for the whiners here in the comforts of home. If you want to expand the force, pull open the purse strings. Hell a draft just spend loads of money training men that are pains in the ass while their in and most are gone after a two year hitch. Wasted coin as I say. Training a troop to operate todays waepons sysytems and support equipment cost a great deal and to waste training monies on folks that won't give you solid effort is bad business. As for bringing them home Michael, stop with the crap. Men should accept responsibility for the messes they have created and the Middle East has been a mess the western world created at the end of WWII, it's time we stood by our word and become accountable for those words and our actions. That is why these IED crafting assholes are impowered to fight on, they know we have a reputation of going back on our word, picking up and leaving when the going gets tough, we have been tiurning our backs on OUR problems since.................ohhhh, forever... Why is it our problem? Let's just ponder several names.......Isreal, Sadam, The Shah, Beruit, Hostage, Bin Laden in the Russian/Afgan years. Should we continue? This is just the trash heap dumped in Bush's lap, and until we start acting like responsible adults and facing OUR problems, drafts, cut and runs, bombs or lying ass politicians are of no value. We have to establish credibility and people have to know we mean what we say and that we aren't simply in this for ourselves. Are we a modern Sparta (300) or do we stick our heads in the sand and offer our ass to the world. You really want to win this war, make you noise about No more oil usage, make the cars and trucks that burn alternative fuels, create an infrastructure that can maintain these new forms of transport. You want to stop the Iranians and Hugo from driving the enemies of the west forward. CUT THEIR PURSE STRINGS. It might take awhile, but that's nothing new. Bull "We don't need a draft, throw some more coin in the kitty and the recruits will turn up in groves." I might be wrong,but I heard the total package for joining is up to 40 grand now.That`s a lot of bread. http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/07/11/MNG03JT3ER1.DTL This and other stories like it should prove that wrong.You said your boy was shipping out?You better hope he`s not serving next to a criminal or social outcast,drug addict or someone just above retard level.The military used to want only the best.Now? "Besides, I don't want a conscript with me if I don't have to. They tend to have terrible attitudes. Kinda like you all do. I have a son taking off to Iraq next week." Would you rather have your boy serving next to a drafted competent,or a volunteer incompetent? One last thing.God bless your boy for serving.Good luck to him and his buddys.I`ll say a prayer for him and your family.That he gets home safe and sound.

Owner59 -> RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered (8/12/2007 11:15:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx Howdy Sinergy, I know I have a gift for pissing folks off. I also have a gift for being direct to a fault. My comment wasn't meant to send you into a vigil of self protection. quote: I dont think it is about the homosexual agenda directly, although there is a connection. I ASKED (denote the question mark) if you thought that homosexuality might not be a bit petty as the reason not to inact a draft. You answered that question in this one comment. I'll the other comments about suspicion of a personal attack is a tad paranoid. I wasn't aware that I didn't like you, I had rather thought I did. But I digress, I was in the service a long time and could give a shit what sexual organ someone is planting their lips on, so long as they have the concept of aim and squeeze the trigger of their government issued weapon down pat. The only comment that bit me a little bit is the one about "getting out of their quick". I prefer the comment of "let's get this right quick". We did the get out quick with the first Bush, that served us well, wouldn't you say? I know I have been and most likely will be hard on folks and sometimes call them out, it happens to me as well. Did you know, all I am after a some young hotties with my time here?........... Yeah, neither did I. I don't know how you can disagree with a path to get to someplace I have yet to take, I'd like to know all the reasons I myself think caused this problem. It's much bigger than some damn religious dispute. Ever notice the three sides to every story dilemma. His, mine and the truth. I have yet to fully uncover even my own truth in this mess. Though I have a suspicion or ten. I sure wasn't hurling anything. At least I didn't think I was. If I accidently conked you in the noggin, sorry about that. Live well, Bull "I know I have a gift for pissing folks off. I also have a gift for being direct to a fault." You mean, I`m not alone?!

InnocentYoungSub -> RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered (8/13/2007 5:38:37 AM)
Come on all you big strong men, Uncle Sam needs your help again. Got himself in a terrible jam, way over there in Iraq...

DomKen -> RE: Bush's war advisor says draft should be considered (8/13/2007 10:25:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I'm not in favor of a draft. 100% required national military service with no ability to defer or otherwise protect anyone from combat is something I'm completely in favor of. The day the graduating class of Grosse Pointe South High School marches onto a troop train bound for boot camp is the day our involvement in the Iraqi civil war ends. Historically, that doesnt exactly work to end wars. Israel has this type of conscription in place right now where everyone has to serve. It has not decreased their aggressiveness, and it has not decreased their military spending. And I dont believe that the majority of our youth are cowards. Even most of the "chickenhawks" say they will go if drafted.... What history? In the Civil War the draft was hugely unpopular and did almost bring the war to an end. In WWII it was essentially impossible to come out against military service and retain power or influence. In the post 1948 period the draft became more and more corupted so that the sons of the wealthy or connected only saw dangerous service if they volunteered for it. It was one of the contributing factors to Vietnam dragging on so long and is a major factor in Iraq. The power elite have no life or death stake in ending the conflict and with much of the armed forces being minorities the racist elements of the power elite see our casualties as not such a bad thing.

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