China threatens our economic future

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Owner59 -> China threatens our economic future (8/8/2007 8:54:26 PM)
1st poisoned dog food,then childrens toys w/ lead paint,now the"nuclear option". China`s making us their bitch. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/08/07/bcnchina107a.xml

Lordandmaster -> RE: China threatens our economic future (8/8/2007 9:17:32 PM)
Actually, I think we're threatening our own economic future, but I agree that blaming China for our problems is an easier concept for the simple-minded to grasp.

Owner59 -> RE: China threatens our economic future (8/8/2007 9:37:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Actually, I think we're threatening our own economic future, but I agree that blaming China for our problems is an easier concept for the simple-minded to grasp. That`s true.We signed the loan papers and are paying to service this debt. Blame isn`t the issue,though.Our economic security and future depends on paying down our dept.The whole Iraq war and most of the tax cuts(for the up-trodden rich) have been financed with money from China and Saudi Arabia.All of it borrowed from people who don`t have our best interests at heart. After WWII, Britain had a huge debt held by us.After Eisenhower used that debt to leverage the British out of the Suez-Sinai War in '56',the British knew they had to end that shit, bit the bullet and did what they had to do,to get out of debt.Now they are one of the biggest "creditor" nations in the world.The US went from the biggest creditor nation (in 1980ish) to one of the biggest "debtor" nations,today.It`s threatening out economic power and independence. We need to address this.It`s heady and eye glazing,but the next president needs to start a new path to American competitiveness. Peace

Termyn8or -> RE: China threatens our economic future (8/8/2007 9:41:28 PM)
I hate to say I told you so, but , I TOLD YOU SO. They are about to start flexing their muscle, and it is going to throw a whole new factor into the mideast situation. Give it a few months. You will see it unfold before your eyes, and when it does, I hope you don't have alot of money, have something else if you can. Just keep your eyes open. T

cyberdude611 -> RE: China threatens our economic future (8/8/2007 10:26:23 PM)
Like I said in another thread....China cannot crash the economy because they don't even hold a majority of the debt. The nation holding the most US treasury bonds is Japan. Plus the economic blowback China would recieve would cause their growth to practically stop. Doing such a thing would not be pretty, but it isn't doomsday. The debt is still manageable. Our GDP is around $12 trillion a year. And the national debt is about 65% of the GDP. China holds only about $1.3 trillion in US treasury bonds. So at this point at least....China can't crash the dollar. They may cause a recession....Al-Queda caused a small recession after 9/11. But there is no collapse on the horizon and this should be viewed as a warning sign that the US needs to become more self-reliant when it comes to production. China cannot sustain the status quo forever though. Unless the Chinese make specific economic reforms and progress....They will max out in 2015 I believe and will begin to decline just as fast as they are currently growing. Here is an article that highlights some of China's problems and why it will never be a world superpower http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/BrokenChinaADysfunctionalNation.aspx Keep in mind also that the US Dollar has survived through much worse threats. It stood strong against the Soviet Union, and China is nothing compared to the Soviet Union.

Owner59 -> RE: China threatens our economic future (8/8/2007 10:37:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 Like I said in another thread....China cannot crash the economy because they don't even hold a majority of the debt. The nation holding the most US treasury bonds is Japan. Plus the economic blowback China would recieve would cause their growth to practically stop. Doing such a thing would not be pretty, but it isn't doomsday. The debt is still manageable. Our GDP is around $12 trillion a year. And the national debt is about 65% of the GDP. China holds only about $1.3 trillion in US treasury bonds. So at this point at least....China can't crash the dollar. They may cause a recession....Al-Queda caused a small recession after 9/11. But there is no collapse on the horizon and this should be viewed as a warning sign that the US needs to become more self-reliant when it comes to production. China cannot sustain the status quo forever though. Unless the Chinese make specific economic reforms and progress....They will max out in 2015 I believe and will begin to decline just as fast as they are currently growing. Here is an article that highlights some of China's problems and why it will never be a world superpower http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/BrokenChinaADysfunctionalNation.aspx Keep in mind also that the US Dollar has survived through much worse threats. It stood strong against the Soviet Union, and China is nothing compared to the Soviet Union. "Keep in mind also that the US Dollar has survived through much worse threats. It stood strong against the Soviet Union, and China is nothing compared to the Soviet Union." True ,but we were a creditor nation then,with strong support under-pinning the dollar.Today,we`re no where near the same position.Just an opinion.

UtopianRanger -> RE: China threatens our economic future (8/9/2007 3:23:36 AM)
quote: After WWII, Britain had a huge debt held by us.After Eisenhower used that debt to leverage the British out of the Suez-Sinai War in '56',the British knew they had to end that shit, bit the bullet and did what they had to do,to get out of debt.Now they are one of the biggest "creditor" nations in the world.The US went from the biggest creditor nation (in 1980ish) to one of the biggest "debtor" nations,today.It`s threatening out economic power and independence. We need to address this.It`s heady and eye glazing,but the next president needs to start a new path to American competitiveness. Damn.... we're on the same wavelength -- I just mentioned this in another thread! Anyway.... I'm glad a few of us are paying attention. - R

UtopianRanger -> RE: China threatens our economic future (8/9/2007 3:35:43 AM)
quote: The debt is still manageable. Our GDP is around $12 trillion a year. And the national debt is about 65% of the GDP. China holds only about $1.3 trillion in US treasury bonds. So at this point at least....China can't crash the dollar. They may cause a recession....Al-Queda caused a small recession after 9/11. But there is no collapse on the horizon and this should be viewed as a warning sign that the US needs to become more self-reliant when it comes to production. Damn...... I hate to be mean, but how much secondary research does it take to prove to you that the GDP number you keep hoisting up in threads over and over-- is just an ILLUSION. The fallacy is in the fact that it's been precipitated by SPENDING, not production. And that spending was in turn precipitated by a false equity bubble-- that's just imploded!! Where do you think all the money has been coming from that's financed these purchases by middle-class folks for SUV's, lavish vacations, consumer goods, etc? It's all loans and credit. A whole lota people are gonna start to fizzle out real soon. - R

sophia37 -> RE: China threatens our economic future (8/9/2007 6:19:35 AM)
To me, this is the most interesting line in the article. "...could trigger a global cycle of protectionist legislation" Hmm. What? Like Before NAFTA?

Real0ne -> RE: China threatens our economic future (8/9/2007 6:53:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sophia37 To me, this is the most interesting line in the article. "...could trigger a global cycle of protectionist legislation" Hmm. What? Like Before NAFTA? what? no more kum-buy-ya with nwo?

cyberdude611 -> RE: China threatens our economic future (8/9/2007 7:10:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger Where do you think all the money has been coming from that's financed these purchases by middle-class folks for SUV's, lavish vacations, consumer goods, etc? It's all loans and credit. A whole lota people are gonna start to fizzle out real soon. - R You know the old saying....you can't get good credit without some good debt. When I was buying a house, my advisor told me beforehand that banks like to see credit cards holding a balance of 30% of their limit. And they like to see a nice savings account. They like to see this MORE than a verified income. And it is true. In fact, the bank I went with never verified the income. They never called my boss to ask how much I make. But they scrutinize my credit cards and my other loans. They wanted to make sure I was paying on-time and what the balance was. And by holding a balance on my credit cards and not paying them off, my credit score actually increased significantly and I got a lower interest rate on the mortgage. It sounds messed up because it is. Banks are weird. If you have ever bought a home....you know how screwed up banks can get...

Owner59 -> RE: China threatens our economic future (8/9/2007 7:32:29 AM)
"China cannot crash the economy" While that may be true,they can dump our debt,and send us into a nation wide recession.They have real power over us,and are now threatening to use it(1st time in history,btw).That`s why bush was begging the Chinese to raise the value of there money in relation to ours.It`s hurting us badly,but the Chinese are politely telling us to fuck ourselves.They`re not budging.China is a horrible dictatorship,w/ it`s own interests at heart. The US can`t afford to make mistakes and mis-calculations.Every move we make needs to advance our position,not weaken it.

Owner59 -> RE: China threatens our economic future (8/9/2007 7:34:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 quote: ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger Where do you think all the money has been coming from that's financed these purchases by middle-class folks for SUV's, lavish vacations, consumer goods, etc? It's all loans and credit. A whole lota people are gonna start to fizzle out real soon. - R You know the old saying....you can't get good credit without some good debt. When I was buying a house, my advisor told me beforehand that banks like to see credit cards holding a balance of 30% of their limit. And they like to see a nice savings account. They like to see this MORE than a verified income. And it is true. In fact, the bank I went with never verified the income. They never called my boss to ask how much I make. But they scrutinize my credit cards and my other loans. They wanted to make sure I was paying on-time and what the balance was. And by holding a balance on my credit cards and not paying them off, my credit score actually increased significantly and I got a lower interest rate on the mortgage. It sounds messed up because it is. Banks are weird. If you have ever bought a home....you know how screwed up banks can get... While I agree with you ,you`re mentioning the "micro",where I`m trying describe the "macro". We not only do business w/ banks,but with nations.For example,the value of our money compared to theirs,trade debt,real debt(in dollars),etc.This is more than a banker and a mortgage. One truth about your analogy works though.If your bank wanted to fuck w/ you,and leverage their will onto you by calling in your loan,they could.Because its they ,that actually own your house.You`re just paying the bank to live there.It`s win/win deal,but if your bank was as nasty as China,it would be win/lose deal,if you pissed them off. Our issue isn`t our credit worthiness,it`s that we`re losing our autonomy and financial prowess.We can`t do what we wish(like protecting jobs,our economy)as we once did,because our position is weaker.We went from a creditor nation(and shot-caller),to a debtor nation(and begger).We can turn that around,in time,and we should start now.

Sinergy -> RE: China threatens our economic future (8/9/2007 7:58:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 We need to address this.It`s heady and eye glazing,but the next president needs to start a new path to American competitiveness. Kinda sad the Republicans got rid of the last President, with the stones do to exactly this, over something as silly as an office blowjob. Sinergy p.s. I read yesterday that John Edwards has indicated if he is elected he will pull the US out of NAFTA and the World Bank. The man has my vote.

cyberdude611 -> RE: China threatens our economic future (8/9/2007 8:27:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 While I agree with you ,you`re mentioning the "micro",where I`m trying describe the "macro". We not only do business w/ banks,but with nations.For example,the value of our money compared to theirs,trade debt,real debt(in dollars),etc.This is more than a banker and a mortgage. One truth about your analogy works though.If your bank wanted to fuck w/ you,and leverage their will onto you by calling in your loan,they could.Because its they ,that actually own your house.You`re just paying the bank to live there.It`s win/win deal,but if your bank was as nasty as China,it would be win/lose deal,if you pissed them off. Our issue isn`t our credit worthiness,it`s that we`re losing our autonomy and financial prowess.We can`t do what we wish(like protecting jobs,our economy)as we once did,because our position is weaker.We went from a creditor nation(and shot-caller),to a debtor nation(and begger).We can turn that around,in time,and we should start now. But banks won't do that because then it comes a lose/lose situation. Banks can recall the loans but if there is no funds there, they have to try and auction the house which will almost certainly go below market value and possibly below the value of the house. The bank may also lose a ton of interest. Just think also what would happen if everyone suddenly decided to stop paying their loans and mortgages. The banks would go bankrupt and the economy truely would collapse.

Level -> RE: China threatens our economic future (8/9/2007 3:24:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 We need to address this.It`s heady and eye glazing,but the next president needs to start a new path to American competitiveness. Kinda sad the Republicans got rid of the last President, with the stones do to exactly this, over something as silly as an office blowjob. Sinergy p.s. I read yesterday that John Edwards has indicated if he is elected he will pull the US out of NAFTA and the World Bank. The man has my vote. How did the Republicans "get rid" of him?

Alumbrado -> RE: China threatens our economic future (8/9/2007 3:26:02 PM)
'It all depends on what you mean by 2 terms in office' [:D]

Level -> RE: China threatens our economic future (8/9/2007 3:28:02 PM)
Well, I mean, is he buried near Vince Foster?..... [:D]

Sinergy -> RE: China threatens our economic future (8/9/2007 3:33:14 PM)
quote: How did the Republicans "get rid" of him? Was speaking euphemistically, suppose a more accurate say of putting it would be investigating him to death, impeaching him, refusing to agree to his recommendations, dragging his personal life through the mud while he endeavored to do his job. I have problems with his behavior, like the next person, however, he did usher in the largest economic expansion of the United States economy in history, evened out the trade deficit, and made dramatic strides in balancing our budget. When I hire somebody to do a job, I really dont give a good gawd damn if they like to get flogged naked while humming the theme from Petticoat Junction on their time off, as long as they do their job. He was getting the job done, imagine how effective it would have been without the animosity towards him by the Right wingers. And for all you out there who might be upset by that, look how effective you people have been doing since you took control. Sinergy

Level -> RE: China threatens our economic future (8/9/2007 3:37:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: How did the Republicans "get rid" of him? Was speaking euphemistically, suppose a more accurate say of putting it would be investigating him to death, impeaching him, refusing to agree to his recommendations, dragging his personal life through the mud while he endeavored to do his job. I have problems with his behavior, like the next person, however, he did usher in the largest economic expansion of the United States economy in history, evened out the trade deficit, and made dramatic strides in balancing our budget. When I hire somebody to do a job, I really dont give a good gawd damn if they like to get flogged naked while humming the theme from Petticoat Junction on their time off, as long as they do their job. He was getting the job done, imagine how effective it would have been without the animosity towards him by the Right wingers. And for all you out there who might be upset by that, look how effective you people have been doing since you took control. Sinergy Now, that's a post I have a lot of agreement with, Sinergy [:D]

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