This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (Full Version)

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NavyDDG54 -> This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (8/7/2007 10:28:16 AM)

Thank god the British gave us this preview of what will happen.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20137025/
Note the following:
As British forces pull back from Basra in southern Iraq, Shiite militias there have escalated a violent battle against each other for political supremacy and control over oil resources, deepening concerns among some U.S. officials in Baghdad that elements of Iraq's Shiite-dominated national government will turn on one another once U.S. troops begin to draw down.
Three major Shiite political groups are locked in a bloody conflict that has left the city in the hands of militias and criminal gangs, whose control extends to municipal offices and neighborhood streets. The city is plagued by "the systematic misuse of official institutions, political assassinations, tribal vendettas, neighborhood vigilantism and enforcement of social mores, together with the rise of criminal mafias that increasingly intermingle with political actors," a recent report by the International Crisis Group said.




mnottertail -> RE: This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (8/7/2007 10:31:23 AM)

Lame stuff, you posted the other thread, man.  You know this is another jack of the same old tired shit.

It don't matter if we stay there for  a 1,000 years, dont you get it?  Gonna be same-same.

The idioticy should have left Saddam be.  Fucked that up, there is nowhere to go now or ever, pull em out and let them go.

Ron 




thompsonx -> RE: This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (8/7/2007 10:35:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

Thank god the British gave us this preview of what will happen.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20137025/
Note the following:
As British forces pull back from Basra in southern Iraq, Shiite militias there have escalated a violent battle against each other for political supremacy and control over oil resources, deepening concerns among some U.S. officials in Baghdad that elements of Iraq's Shiite-dominated national government will turn on one another once U.S. troops begin to draw down.
Three major Shiite political groups are locked in a bloody conflict that has left the city in the hands of militias and criminal gangs, whose control extends to municipal offices and neighborhood streets. The city is plagued by "the systematic misuse of official institutions, political assassinations, tribal vendettas, neighborhood vigilantism and enforcement of social mores, together with the rise of criminal mafias that increasingly intermingle with political actors," a recent report by the International Crisis Group said.


NavyDDG54:
Is there some reason I or anyone else should care what those people do in their own country?
thompson




NavyDDG54 -> RE: This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (8/7/2007 10:36:16 AM)

actually this is a recent development on the MSNBC website....new stuff.

and yes we can quell the insurgency in Iraq. it just takes time, the average time to suppress an insurgency is 10 years....based on that we are not even half way there.           




NavyDDG54 -> RE: This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (8/7/2007 10:39:58 AM)

Thompson,
Yes. We should care about what happens in Iraq, Iran, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, etc....

why? because they all pose a threat. we are seeing an underground movement(radical islam) forming massive alliances and networks throughout the world. Now they have at least 3 countries (Iran, Syria, and Lebanon) who openly support and encourage their activities. Radical Islam, like Nazi Germany, will not be appeased, they want world domination. We need to stop this spread before it's too late. And part of that is eliminating Iraq as a safety zone for Radical Islam




thompsonx -> RE: This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (8/7/2007 10:44:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

actually this is a recent development on the MSNBC website....new stuff.

and yes we can quell the insurgency in Iraq. it just takes time, the average time to suppress an insurgency is 10 years....based on that we are not even half way there.           


NavyDDG54:
We spent twenty years in Viet Nam and couldn't do it.  What makes you think it would be any different in Iraq?
thompson




farglebargle -> RE: This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (8/7/2007 10:54:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

Thompson,
Yes. We should care about what happens in Iraq, Iran, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, etc....

why? because they all pose a threat. we are seeing an underground movement(radical islam) forming massive alliances and networks throughout the world. Now they have at least 3 countries (Iran, Syria, and Lebanon) who openly support and encourage their activities. Radical Islam, like Nazi Germany, will not be appeased, they want world domination. We need to stop this spread before it's too late. And part of that is eliminating Iraq as a safety zone for Radical Islam


First, why did Bush CREATE a safety zone for Radical Islam in Iraq in the first place?

If he didn't commit criminal fraud to get Congress to authorize his use of military force, then Radical Islam in Iraq wouldn't be an issue.

So I'd call "Bullshit" on that claim.

Now, you wanna stop the threat of Fundamentalist Islam. Ok. Go Amend the fucking Constitution to delegate that authority, OR go before Congress seeking a Declaration of War.





thompsonx -> RE: This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (8/7/2007 4:40:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

Thompson,
Yes. We should care about what happens in Iraq, Iran, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, etc....

why? because they all pose a threat. we are seeing an underground movement(radical islam) forming massive alliances and networks throughout the world. Now they have at least 3 countries (Iran, Syria, and Lebanon) who openly support and encourage their activities. Radical Islam, like Nazi Germany, will not be appeased, they want world domination. We need to stop this spread before it's too late. And part of that is eliminating Iraq as a safety zone for Radical Islam


NavyDDG54:
We are the United States of America not the united states of the whole fucking world....My daddy once told me the best way to get your nose broken is to stick it in someone else's business.
thompson




SimplyMichael -> RE: This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (8/7/2007 4:50:07 PM)

Right wingers are so often cowards.  The Israelis held off the entire Muslim world, but I guess Jews can fight and the Christian right wingers would just surrender.  I mean come on, the arab world is splintered and fractured and you think they are a threat to the West?

Laughable and pathetic!




Owner59 -> RE: This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (8/7/2007 7:28:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

actually this is a recent development on the MSNBC website....new stuff.

and yes we can quell the insurgency in Iraq. it just takes time, the average time to suppress an insurgency is 10 years....based on that we are not even half way there.           


"the average time to suppress an insurgency is 10 years"

Where the fuck did you get that?!?

"based on that",.....my ass!


Here`s a recent development,dick.We lost 21 men this week.How many more weeks like that can we stand?And for what,to save bush`s reputation?




LATEXBABY64 -> RE: This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (8/7/2007 7:48:43 PM)

you know during ww2 we stuck are head in the sand as hilter rolled acrossed europe. Pakastan has nukes india has nukes..Bin Laudin wants to unit all the islamic states do not bet your sweet ass that can not happen cause it can. I heard the other day Iran is close have you know a chain reaction a right one would set all those part in motion to make that happen.. you should study more about war and history of conquest.  and more about  radical islam.




Sinergy -> RE: This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (8/7/2007 7:51:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

"the average time to suppress an insurgency is 10 years"

Where the fuck did you get that?!?



It was downloaded to his brain by Faux News.

Sinergy




slaveboyforyou -> RE: This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (8/7/2007 8:08:36 PM)

quote:

Thank god the British gave us this preview of what will happen.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20137025/
Note the following:
As British forces pull back from Basra in southern Iraq, Shiite militias there have escalated a violent battle against each other for political supremacy and control over oil resources, deepening concerns among some U.S. officials in Baghdad that elements of Iraq's Shiite-dominated national government will turn on one another once U.S. troops begin to draw down.
Three major Shiite political groups are locked in a bloody conflict that has left the city in the hands of militias and criminal gangs, whose control extends to municipal offices and neighborhood streets. The city is plagued by "the systematic misuse of official institutions, political assassinations, tribal vendettas, neighborhood vigilantism and enforcement of social mores, together with the rise of criminal mafias that increasingly intermingle with political actors," a recent report by the International Crisis Group said.


You may want to take a look at our own history with civil wars, and apply your thinking to it.  Civil wars always produce the behavior that you describe.  What if the French and the English had decided that we needed someone to come in and enforce peace in 1861?  Do you really think that our forefathers would have been thankful for it?  The longer we stay there, the more hated we are going to be.  As I have said before; the best thing we can do is cut them a check, wish them the best of luck, then pack up and leave.   




farglebargle -> RE: This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (8/7/2007 9:11:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

you know during ww2 we stuck are head in the sand as hilter rolled acrossed europe. Pakastan has nukes india has nukes..Bin Laudin wants to unit all the islamic states do not bet your sweet ass that can not happen cause it can. I heard the other day Iran is close have you know a chain reaction a right one would set all those part in motion to make that happen.. you should study more about war and history of conquest. and more about radical islam.



A much more realistic scenario would be the Iranian Kurds, and the Iraqi Kurds, and the Turkish Kurds forming Independent Kurdistan, and at that point, Turkey and Iran launch full-on offenses and you have a 2 front war in the north to complement the Sunni/Shiia ethnic cleansing going on in the south..

What are your plans for that contingency? If you can't make a deal and get everyone to go along by giving them money, you need to be able to bust heads. Got enough people to stand between the Turkish and Iranian armies and tell them to just accept the secession of their Kurdish states?

To quote Astro, "Rotsa Ruck, Reorge!"





thompsonx -> RE: This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (8/7/2007 10:05:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

you know during ww2 we stuck are head in the sand as hilter rolled acrossed europe. Pakastan has nukes india has nukes..Bin Laudin wants to unit all the islamic states do not bet your sweet ass that can not happen cause it can. I heard the other day Iran is close have you know a chain reaction a right one would set all those part in motion to make that happen.. you should study more about war and history of conquest.  and more about  radical islam.



LATEXBABY64:
It would appear that you have managed to get both feet in your mouth at the same time.
Your understanding of WWII is somewhat flawed.  Hitler's war was in Russia not Europe.  The U.S. played an infinitesimal part in that conflict.  For example the Germans lost as many men in the battle for Moscow (which she lost) as the U.S, lost in the whole war.  Germany went to Russia with 120 divisions while never having more than 20 divisions in all of Europe.
For you to make such bold extrapolations about things you hear on faux news is simply not warranted.  You talk of Bin Laden uniting all the Islamic states and then list both Pakistan and India.  Pakistan is Islamic and India is Hindu...they hate one another.
Would you like to go back and try this again after doing a little research.
thompson




Politesub53 -> RE: This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (8/8/2007 2:40:20 AM)

Thompson... What about all the deaths in Western Europe before Hitler invaded Russia. At one time there were 16 German Divisions in Italy alone, so according to Your figures there were only 4 covering the rest of the West ?

I dont disagree with your other points at all. In fact if Iran forms an alliance with Pakistan they will already have a nuclear weapon.




mefisto69 -> RE: This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (8/8/2007 3:08:22 AM)

The Bushwackers went in because they thought they were going to get control of the oil....oops - fucked up again. Now we are mired in a region whose people have been at each others' throats for 5000 years. They live tribally and have never come to consensus. A large radical Muslim sect teaches it's children to kill all the infadels...weeeeeee JIHAD ! No one had the balls to nuke these cavemen. No one will drop the neutron bomb on them. Guess what? Those are the only two viable solutions to the problem.




farglebargle -> RE: This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (8/8/2007 5:54:42 AM)

Yup, and for SOME REASON, the puppet Malaki government WE IMPOSED is falling apart.

I expect the person who WON THE ELECTION Ibrahim al-Jaafari perhaps, because he would have been LEGITIMATE would have done better.

I guess the US Puppet Malaki's government is JUST AS INEFFECTIVE AND SECTARIAN as Jaffari's ( Why the US tossed out the election and put their own puppet in. )

SO, I guess now the Neocon Party Whores and Treasonous Bush Supporters will say, "Well we just replaced Malaki with a different Puppet, so you HAVE to wait 6 months to see if he obeys his commands from the US first"

Fuck That.

and

Fuck Iraq.

We wasted enough lives and money on them.






caitlyn -> RE: This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (8/8/2007 7:20:17 AM)

I don't agree at all with your theory about the Second World War in Europe.
 
1. The United States provided just under eleven percent of the war resources used by the Soviet Union, but the real importance of this is a) when they were delivered, b) that they were delivered, c) that they were delivered on credit.
 
2. The divisional count ignores the point of water barriers used as defense, and most importantly of all, the significant numbers of top German air assets that had to be kept in the west. On the Eastern front, the Germans primarily fought in the air with outdated aircraft like the ME109 (and rarely the more advances G model), because they were a match for the Soviet YAK-9 and LaGG-3 ... and used the superior FW-190 and ME-109G in the West. That there were not superior numbers in the west, was primarily due to them being shot down by British and American fighters. To ignore the notion that these fighters, if deployed in the East, would have cleared the sky of the Red Air Force, is to ignore reality.
 
I hold the view that all powers shared equally in the defeat of Germany, and to belittle any one, is primarily just spin, or making numbers mean what you want them to mean.
 
Expanding to the hypothetical, a case can be made that the Soviets might never have beaten the Germans without the Western Allies, while the British and Ameircan might well have beaten the Germans without assistance from the Soviets. The Soviets were seriously outclassed in the air, by aircraft that they were never forced to face, and didn't have the strategic bombing assets to limit production of these assets. A sky filled with FW-190's and ME-210 ground attack aircraft, might have made things highly hazardous for the advance Red Army. The alternate case can be made that by far, the primary casualty causing arms of the Western Allies, was air power and artillery. This is especially true of the Americans, who come in at close to 90% casualties caused by air assets and artillery. Simpley put, massive numbers of divisions were not needed, as these were not the primary killing arms. The Germans were not encouraged to field large numbers of divisions in the West, only to see them carpet bombed. Most importantly, the Western Allies had the ability to seriously disrupt production, and had a multi-flexible navy. A strong case can be made that the Western Allies could have eventually beaten the Germans alone. That said, I wouldn't have wanted to live in a British city, is the war would have lasted in to early 1947.  




thompsonx -> RE: This is what happens when you retreat from Iraq too early (8/8/2007 8:50:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Thompson... What about all the deaths in Western Europe before Hitler invaded Russia. At one time there were 16 German Divisions in Italy alone, so according to Your figures there were only 4 covering the rest of the West ?

I dont disagree with your other points at all. In fact if Iran forms an alliance with Pakistan they will already have a nuclear weapon.

Politesub53:
I am unsure as to how you came up with 16 German divisions in Italy.  "Smilin Fritz" had the 10th. army and it only had two corps.  Who else were you thinking of?
As for Iran and Pakistan forming an alliance I do not see that as likely even if there is a regime change in Pakistan.
thompson




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