House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (Full Version)

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Level -> House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (8/5/2007 7:12:21 PM)

WASHINGTON - Declaring a new direction in energy policy, the House on Saturday approved $16 billion in taxes on oil companies, while providing billions of dollars in tax breaks and incentives for renewable energy and conservation efforts.

Republican opponents said the legislation ignored the need to produce more domestic oil, natural gas and coal. One GOP lawmaker bemoaned "the pure venom ... against the oil and gas industry."

The House passed the tax provisions by a vote of 221-189. Earlier it had approved, 241-172, a companion energy package aimed at boosting energy efficiency and expanding use of biofuels, wind power and other renewable energy

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20124921





farglebargle -> RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (8/5/2007 7:16:34 PM)

Put them the fuck out of business. They are a direct threat to our National Security.




sublimelysensual -> RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (8/5/2007 7:17:13 PM)

I saw this in the paper today, and have to admit my first thought was..great..give them one more reason to raise gas prices. I am not a fan of the oil companies, but damm. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for renewable energy sources, etc, but realistically, how much of the working middle class can afford things like hybrid vehicles, solar panels, etc. Something is going to have to give.
 
-a



farglebargle -> RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (8/5/2007 7:19:31 PM)

Uh.. You don't need hybrids OR Solar panels.

It takes 1970's/1980's technology and LESS MONEY than we've spent in Iraq these past 4 years.

And putting the fucking Oil companies and their traitorous supporters out of the equation.




sharainks -> RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (8/5/2007 7:23:41 PM)

I wonder why anyone would think there would be venom against the oil industry?  I mean just because the prices raise 30 cents overnight because someone in the markets thinks something may be a problem.  For years the exact things have happened as are happening today without the drastic raises in price.  Why venom just because the last 3 years have been record profits for the oil companies at the expense of every citizen of this country? 

The "average joe(sephine)" is sick of the oil companie's manipulation and sick of the govt. letting them continue with it.
If Brazil can be energy independent so can we.  However, it will take a govt. that is willing to support and encourage that rather than worrying about losing the political contributions of oil barons. 

I guess we will probably still be sitting here resting on our laurels when the oil finally runs out if thats what it takes.



farglebargle -> RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (8/5/2007 7:30:00 PM)

You underestimate their treason.

We could have 100% hydrocarbon independence for 100% of our electrical needs.

That includes fully plug-in hybrids.

That includes ZERO EMISSIONS.

It's been technically possible since the 1970's, and would have cost LESS than we've spent in Iraq in just the past 4 years.




sublimelysensual -> RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (8/5/2007 7:42:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Uh.. You don't need hybrids OR Solar panels.

It takes 1970's/1980's technology and LESS MONEY than we've spent in Iraq these past 4 years.

And putting the fucking Oil companies and their traitorous supporters out of the equation.



 
I readily admit to not being an expert on renewable resources. What I have seen is that what is available now for purchase by the general public costs at least 25% more, and usually even more than that. I agree that it reeks that we're so dependent on oil, and I am interested in the worldview about breaking that addiction/going renewable; but..as a single parent right now all those options are out the window for me on a personal level, so yes, it irritates me that there's one more reason for gas/heating oil, etc prices to go even higher. Just my two cents, as always..
 
-a



farglebargle -> RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (8/5/2007 7:44:26 PM)

Well, you break the addiction by putting the dealers out of business, while providing alternatives.

We at least, HAD the money to spend developing the infrastructure needed. The technology is well understood, and at this point 30 years old.

The only thing which has prevented it, is the DEALERS demand for more money.




Owner59 -> RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (8/5/2007 7:44:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sublimelysensual

I saw this in the paper today, and have to admit my first thought was..great..give them one more reason to raise gas prices. I am not a fan of the oil companies, but damm. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for renewable energy sources, etc, but realistically, how much of the working middle class can afford things like hybrid vehicles, solar panels, etc. Something is going to have to give.
 
-a


Hey a,

I feel you and agree that we can`t afford higher prices.We have been subsidizing oil companies,though, to the tune of billions of dollars.They`ve been making money, hand over fist.They`re only interested is taking as much as they can,and fuck the US economy.The solution to higher prices ,is enforcing the regulations that have been going un-enforced.And developing clean,renewable ,multiple sources of energy.We will always use oil and petroleum products.But we can do much better.

Right now, Brazil is energy independent, and they export oil and finished petroleum products.They started years ago towards energy independence and got there,so can we.The technology is already here and working.With a little effort and leadership,we could also get there and do even better.

With the way things are going,can we afford "not" to do something about global climate change?



farglebargle -> RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (8/5/2007 7:48:20 PM)

Fuck climate change, that's just bullshit to create the carbon-credit exchange market.

This is about, no less, the United States' total energy independence, AND the ability to provide limitless electricity to our strategic partners as a primary component to Foreign Policy. ( As well as dominance of access to Space, but that's not the point here... Maybe it should be. The oil companies are preventing OUR KIDS from colonizing the Universe.

You *know* the Chinese are going to get there first, and then our kids will just be more indentured labor.




Owner59 -> RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (8/5/2007 7:53:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Fuck climate change, that's just bullshit to create the carbon-credit exchange market.

This is about, no less, the United States' total energy independence, AND the ability to provide limitless electricity to our strategic partners as a primary component to Foreign Policy. ( As well as dominance of access to Space, but that's not the point here... Maybe it should be. The oil companies are preventing OUR KIDS from colonizing the Universe.

You *know* the Chinese are going to get there first, and then our kids will just be more indentured labor.




Perhaps,but we won`t know,b/c we`ll both be long dead.... 



sublimelysensual -> RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (8/5/2007 7:53:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Hey a,

I feel you and agree that we can`t afford higher prices.We have been subsidizing oil companies,though, to the tune of billions of dollars.They`ve been making money, hand over fist.They`re only interested is taking as much as they can,and fuck the US economy.The solution to higher prices ,is enforcing the regulations that have been going un-enforced.And developing clean,renewable ,multiple sources of energy.We will always use oil and petroleum products.But we can do much better.

Right now, Brazil is energy independent, and they export oil and finished petroleum products.They started years ago towards energy independence and got there,so can we.The technology is already here and working.With a little effort and leadership,we could do get there and do even better.

With the way things are going,can we afford "not" to do something about global climate change?


I agree with You that we can do better, I just don't think the tax increase was necessarily the smartest way to go about it, or start to. I simply see that being passed along to consumers via higher prices. Now, if the gov't would guarantee that the $16 billion would go into development of renewable resources, it might irritate me a bit less, but somehow I don't see that happening.
 
-a



farglebargle -> RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (8/5/2007 8:03:07 PM)

Ok. I want to hear this development of renewable resources shit ended.

Here is the PLAN FOR THE FUTURE ACCORDING TO ME.

1) Develop heavy lifting to GEO. We're sending mechanical and communications engineers, this time, not navy pilots. The target price is, IIRC OTTOMY, 80 bucks/kg. Figure 200 Billion for that.

2) Solar Power Satellites. These fuckers have a few square km of solar panels, and convert their energy to microwaves. 100 Billion

3) Groundstations/Rectenna Farms --- See them obsolete generating stations, we're covering them with antenna dipoles.
50 Billion.

4) Grease. There's 50 Billion in Grease left over.

Here's how it works..

SUNLIGHT -> SOLAR CELLS IN ORBIT -> MICROWAVES ( think "Cellphone" ) -> GROUNDSTATION -> Your Plug In Car.

Now all we gotta do is get it appropriated.

( There's a suggestion to do it as a series of X-Prizes... First US Company to deliver something not a missile which can get the bulk cargo to the specified orbit, and then turn around and do it again, gets the $200 Billion and the patent, or something... )

Oh, btw, once you're WORKING M-F in Geosync Orbit building antenna grids, you go to the moon for the weekend.

THEN we need Chinese food, Whores, Casinos, Coke, Pitbulls and Booze.

What happens on Luna STAYS ON LUNA!

From there, our conquest of the universe is assured.




sublimelysensual -> RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (8/5/2007 8:12:23 PM)

-laughing- I apologize for using the word "development", Fargle. The spirit in which it was intended was..use the money to get the sh*t working so we can get closer to not being so dependent. And now, since my computer seems to be irritated with me (it's locked up twice since I started trying to reply), I'm off to sleep to try and renew my own resources *g*.
 
-a



Owner59 -> RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (8/5/2007 9:11:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Ok. I want to hear this development of renewable resources shit ended.

Here is the PLAN FOR THE FUTURE ACCORDING TO ME.

1) Develop heavy lifting to GEO. We're sending mechanical and communications engineers, this time, not navy pilots. The target price is, IIRC OTTOMY, 80 bucks/kg. Figure 200 Billion for that.

2) Solar Power Satellites. These fuckers have a few square km of solar panels, and convert their energy to microwaves. 100 Billion

3) Groundstations/Rectenna Farms --- See them obsolete generating stations, we're covering them with antenna dipoles.
50 Billion.

4) Grease. There's 50 Billion in Grease left over.

Here's how it works..

SUNLIGHT -> SOLAR CELLS IN ORBIT -> MICROWAVES ( think "Cellphone" ) -> GROUNDSTATION -> Your Plug In Car.

Now all we gotta do is get it appropriated.

( There's a suggestion to do it as a series of X-Prizes... First US Company to deliver something not a missile which can get the bulk cargo to the specified orbit, and then turn around and do it again, gets the $200 Billion and the patent, or something... )

Oh, btw, once you're WORKING M-F in Geosync Orbit building antenna grids, you go to the moon for the weekend.

THEN we need Chinese food, Whores, Casinos, Coke, Pitbulls and Booze.

What happens on Luna STAYS ON LUNA!

From there, our conquest of the universe is assured.




farglebargle`s obviously having a kick ass party at his place.[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m6.gif[/image]



Owner59 -> RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (8/5/2007 9:15:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sublimelysensual

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Hey a,

I feel you and agree that we can`t afford higher prices.We have been subsidizing oil companies,though, to the tune of billions of dollars.They`ve been making money, hand over fist.They`re only interested is taking as much as they can,and fuck the US economy.The solution to higher prices ,is enforcing the regulations that have been going un-enforced.And developing clean,renewable ,multiple sources of energy.We will always use oil and petroleum products.But we can do much better.

Right now, Brazil is energy independent, and they export oil and finished petroleum products.They started years ago towards energy independence and got there,so can we.The technology is already here and working.With a little effort and leadership,we could do get there and do even better.

With the way things are going,can we afford "not" to do something about global climate change?


I agree with You that we can do better, I just don't think the tax increase was necessarily the smartest way to go about it, or start to. I simply see that being passed along to consumers via higher prices. Now, if the gov't would guarantee that the $16 billion would go into development of renewable resources, it might irritate me a bit less, but somehow I don't see that happening.
 
-a


Okay a,

Here`s the hard question.....Do we burn our hair off with UV-rays,or pay more to aviod them?We pay one way or the other.



RWAble -> RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (8/5/2007 9:23:43 PM)

Heres an Idea. Lets just get rid of the real President..Cheney. Make him give all the millions of dollars he has made on the deaths of 3000 American troops, to their families and hang the bastard by his...you know what.
Wake up people.



Lordandmaster -> RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (8/5/2007 9:30:59 PM)

I know what you're saying, and there's no easy way to break a cartel.  But there's a certain price point that the oil companies KNOW they can't cross, because that would spur too many consumers to move to carpooling, public transportation, and so on, and it's well known that people who change their energy habits rarely change them back.  They've calculated this precisely; you can bet on that.  So the idea is that the tax, combined with the incentives for more intelligent energy, will force energy companies to work for their profits instead of just sitting back and counting the dollars.  Just passing costs on to consumers won't work indefinitely for them because eventually consumers will figure out ways to avoid gasoline altogether.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sublimelysensual

I agree with You that we can do better, I just don't think the tax increase was necessarily the smartest way to go about it, or start to. I simply see that being passed along to consumers via higher prices. Now, if the gov't would guarantee that the $16 billion would go into development of renewable resources, it might irritate me a bit less, but somehow I don't see that happening.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (8/6/2007 12:18:36 AM)

The raise in taxes, just means that the consumer will have to pay more, since they will just increase price. When will the government understand that companies do not pay in increase in expense or tax, the consumer does. Gee thanks again politicians for stealing even more money out of my pocket. Fucking IRS, Social Security and Medicare, are some of the biggest goddamn, illegal rip offs there are.

Orion



Archer -> RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry (8/6/2007 12:23:21 AM)

And again the idea of profit vs profit margin eludes the masses.
Margins have remained steady at roughly 10% for a decade or so. I and every other stock holder expect a return on investment. What return on investment do you expect. Take emotional crap off the table and really just opffer up a real number for a Fair Profit for a business with in a risk catagory 1-5 1 being lowest risk and 5 being highest risk. I have yet to find anyone on the anti business side who will give me those figures. They all simply sidestep and redirect with crap about fairness. Fair means getting what you deserve based on what you have put forth and what you have risked.
So lets have it what is a fair return on investment. If I invest $100,000,000 shouild I not expect 10% or 10,000,000 return, and if I invest 1,000 wouldn't it be fair to assume I would get only $100 in return if I have the same or similar risk?
The huge numbers tossed around are profit and can only be meaningfull when compared to invested dollars to get that profit.

I'm not against finding alternatives, But the stuff fargle wants to put out there are inflated as best I can tell as to feasibility.
Solar Cell even in space still is only 14-18% efficient and that is in space numbers as best I recall from my research. To provide all the energy we use the solar cell will need to be in the 50% efficient range before current demand can be met. They had a Discovery Channel special that addressed this exact issue not two months ago.
This is not to say I'm against more reseach to get them into the 50% efficient range I'd love that then even at the surface of the earth the normal US 3-2-1 could be powered entirely off less surface area than the roof of the house. Thus removing the single largest consumption of fossil fuels Coal and Oil burning electric plants. Far out stripping the carbon footprints of automobiles.



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