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RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry - 8/6/2007 5:53:38 AM   
farglebargle


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Exactly *where* does it say we, as a people, need to subsidize obsolete industries, simply so their shareholders don't take a beating?

The Combustion/Generation industry is obsolete, and their attempts to retain their positions is a clear threat to our national security.

Burning Oil is OVER PEOPLE. Grow up, and build the infrastructure that takes us to the stars.

The only people it'll hurt are the people who don't pull their money out of the loser companies and into the emerging industry.

Oh, and there's 100 Billion budgeted for the development of the Satellite component. That ( and economies of scale one production ramps up ) should take care of any potential inefficiencies in the PV cells... Having Mechanical and Electrical engineers on the satellites means they'll be expermenting with alternatives, like stirling engines fed by the sun, etc...

400 Billion gets us all the R&D we'd ever need. Less than what we've spent in Iraq to date...

Stop thinking like slaves of ExxonMobil, and start thinking about how our kids populate the Universe.

Once you're in GEO, the moon is a 3 day R&R break.

Once you're on the Moon, and there's Vegas-on-Luna, there's no going back.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 8/6/2007 5:58:40 AM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Archer)
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RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry - 8/6/2007 5:58:58 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I know what you're saying, and there's no easy way to break a cartel.  But there's a certain price point that the oil companies KNOW they can't cross, because that would spur too many consumers to move to carpooling, public transportation, and so on, and it's well known that people who change their energy habits rarely change them back.  They've calculated this precisely; you can bet on that.  So the idea is that the tax, combined with the incentives for more intelligent energy, will force energy companies to work for their profits instead of just sitting back and counting the dollars.  Just passing costs on to consumers won't work indefinitely for them because eventually consumers will figure out ways to avoid gasoline altogether.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sublimelysensual

I agree with You that we can do better, I just don't think the tax increase was necessarily the smartest way to go about it, or start to. I simply see that being passed along to consumers via higher prices. Now, if the gov't would guarantee that the $16 billion would go into development of renewable resources, it might irritate me a bit less, but somehow I don't see that happening.



Additionally, they will raise the red ass of the consumer in the middle of raising prices since they are already sucking us dry and showing record profits, and should be taxed to death until they find resources here at home, and get in the energy buisness, not the oil business as they claim to represent---Standard Oil is long gone.

Ron

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RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry - 8/6/2007 5:59:24 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
I and every other stock holder expect a return on investment. What return on investment do you expect.


I can help you out here.

I don't think that basic needs and utilities that are so important to so many should be in the hands of the supposedly "free market" and therefore open to egregious manipulation by the stakeholders. I think things like telecommunications, fuel, water, sewer, etc should all be in the hands of the state. Remove the middleman and encourage the use of the most frugal options available in each category.

Return on investment? I'd say you should get into another business.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
Solar...


Ah yes, pick the weakest of all possible forms of alternative fuels and rail against the lack of efficiency of just the one.

Ignore the fact that fossil fuels have a lot of market momentum and that if we threw the same momentum behind alternative fuels we would get far greater results and far better fuel efficiencies. Yeah, ignore that fact...

I was reading an article a few weeks back about some guy back east somewhere that was getting most of his electricity needs satisfied by a single wind powered unit. Could he also power an electric vehicle all year long with a second unit? Maybe that makes more sense than paying "free market" value for continuing as part of the grid...

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RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry - 8/6/2007 6:52:09 AM   
sophia37


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Geez. They tax the oil companies then give them tax breaks? Brilliant. Lets not lose our heads here thinking the oil companies are getting socked in the eye. This feels very well thought out in advance to me. The energy companies have been making sure they didnt have any controls until they had their hand in "alternative energys" as well. Well, we need to take the clue people and work the government programs in our favor as well. I try to, thats for sure. 

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RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry - 8/6/2007 7:45:38 AM   
Archer


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Sugar please take a little more care when ascribing motivations to my choices. I hit solar because fargle brought it up. That much is blatantly obvious to ayone who read my post.

It' wasn't Solar bla bla bla it was "I'm not against finding alternatives, But the stuff fargle wants to put out there are inflated as best I can tell as to feasibility. "

I picked it because it was put forth by fargle as viable when it is not currently as you agreed.

I also didn't bash it as not being worthy of further exloration only as not currently feasible. and the last line of my post wa actually solar positive for the future.

"This is not to say I'm against more reseach to get them into the 50% efficient range I'd love that then even at the surface of the earth the normal US 3-2-1 could be powered entirely off less surface area than the roof of the house."

Now at least you are forthright about your socialistic nature when it comes to this.
Nationalizing the energy industry Non Profit. Can only argue the capitalism vs socialism argument to that reply. Which based on our postings would yeild no common ground worth exploring.

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RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry - 8/6/2007 8:05:13 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:


It' wasn't Solar bla bla bla it was "I'm not against finding alternatives, But the stuff fargle wants to put out there are inflated as best I can tell as to feasibility. "


It's 1970s technology.

And what are the National Security implications of our Energy Generation facilities being owned by foreign entities?



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 8/6/2007 8:06:18 AM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

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RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry - 8/6/2007 8:57:26 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
Can only argue the capitalism vs socialism argument to that reply. Which based on our postings would yeild no common ground worth exploring.


Perhaps, but mine is not a political view alien to our society. In my town, and in many others across the country as well, many utilities are city, county, or state run. Where I am we have city electrical and sewage. I know of communities that provide free cable to all residents. And so on...

Removing the volatility from areas of the marketplace like fuel would have a profound stabilizing effect in other areas of the market where fuel volatility is often the reason for a rise in prices. It just makes sense to put something so necessary into the hands of the people via government to me. Electrical and gas seem like other areas of volatility that should most often be in the hands of govt. instead of the private sector. I mean, look at how Enron gamed the system...that's not right.

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RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry - 8/6/2007 10:13:47 AM   
Archer


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See we have a fundamental disagreement here Sugar I do not believe in having the government control and provide anything that can be handled by a non government entity. I'm not saying it's a foreign concept at all, we have had industries that have been government owned and run. They tend to be less effcient overall and then there is the pesky little additional power to the government I dont have a huge trust for. They do a tollerable job of providing things that are not easily fractionable.

I'm not for completely letting Business have its way, I think they need to enforce the laws strictly in cases like Enron World Com, etc. Trial, sentance, conviction, penalty, and I would not be adverse to confiscation of wealth directly attributable to the crime, right down to the poverty level if it's all connected to the crime being part of the penalty.

Energy is easily fractionable Watts/ gallons/ tons/ cords all easily fractionable and as such I just don't see the need for government to own and control it. Regulate the accounting, ensure they operate in a legal manner, no problem.

Not that I expect to shift your view, just giving mine for the record.

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RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry - 8/6/2007 10:24:24 AM   
popeye1250


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Tax and Spend, Tax and Spend, the Dems just *can't* get away from that type of thinking, can they?
Where's all the "Change" they promised us?
Where is it, anyone seen it?
GO RON PAUL!

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RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry - 8/6/2007 10:27:34 AM   
mnottertail


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no tax and spend to it, democrats my ass.

who is doing the war of no reason in Iraq thingie, when do you think that will start getting paid for? who is buying velcro closures for the perimeter troops?  who is hiring consultants for the color schema of our terror threat?

WTF?  

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RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry - 8/6/2007 11:50:14 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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I can help you out here.

I don't think that basic needs and utilities that are so important to so many should be in the hands of the supposedly "servants of the people" and therefore open to egregious manipulation by the politicians. I think things like telecommunications, fuel, water, sewer, etc should all be in the hands of the people.

What successful nationwide projects has the federal government had, other than the interstate system?

Does everyone remember the level of service, and expansion of new technology when alot of it was government regulated?

Monopoly in one form or another, stifles growth, and gives no options but to accept the level of service you get. I suppose we could complain to the politicians when we have problems, but what exactly do the politicians and government do again?

The root of the problem is the political status quo. I dare someone, anyone, to prove me wrong. I have tracked voting on both sides of the political spectrum, and those fuckers in Washington just want to gain power and secure their jobs.

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

I can help you out here.

I don't think that basic needs and utilities that are so important to so many should be in the hands of the supposedly "free market" and therefore open to egregious manipulation by the stakeholders. I think things like telecommunications, fuel, water, sewer, etc should all be in the hands of the state. Remove the middleman and encourage the use of the most frugal options available in each category.



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RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry - 8/6/2007 1:02:25 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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All we need is the right kind of oversight and all opposition would vanish to government run programs.

I just want value for my money. Crap like war in Iraq and spending all of our children's money now doesn't really cut it for me.

If we had Universal Healthcare, good welfare, social programs for the poor, a proper defense of the nation, tighter borders, etc - at least some of us might see some of our money back again. As it is it's take from the middle class and give it to the top 1%: Koch Industries, ADM, Haliburton, Blackwater, Etc. I just don't see the return there. Poof, it's all gone - into the hands of crooks...

Fuck that noise!

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RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry - 8/6/2007 1:09:58 PM   
Archer


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Replaces SugarMyChurro's glasses with the rose colored ones that lead him to believe folks will produce anything beyond mediocraty without a profit motive. LOL

Man I try to keep it at a minimum and you just gotta poke at me with that stick, hang out that bait.

How much regulation of the government would you think folks will need to accept a nanny state Sugar???
LOL time to return the baiting favor. LOL

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RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry - 8/6/2007 1:47:03 PM   
Termyn8or


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In the 70s Dr Olshevsky (sp) introduced a new form of semiconductor termed ovonics. He made amorpous semiconductors. The process was similar to normal crystalline semiconductors but simpler. They were said to be able to withstand much higher temerature than the standard silicon junction. I believe the only reason we don't see this technology in use today is because they probably couldn't beat the gain/power/bandwidth of conventional silicon technology.

Years after the original research, a use was found for this ovonics, although I have not heard it referred to as such, only referenced once. Solar cells. Ovonics did advance the efficiency and ease of manufacture of solar cells. However it was not enough.

Fact of the matter is that solar is not ready. Let's say the cooling system in my house pulls 22 amps at 240 volts. Does anyone have a conception of just how many solar cells it would take to power that ? And don't gimme satellites, I remember when the newer smaller dishes came out, like dishnet etc., as opposed to the seven foot recieving antenna. They boasted the they upped the transmitting power to a whopping 50 watts. Wowee. A cooling system at 240 volts pulling 22 amps is 5,280 watts. Ain't quite gonna cut it I think.

Of course that doesn't mean there is a mere 50 watts up there, there is alot of support electronics and they do indeed run some refrigeration. They have to to cool the chips etc. Terrestrially this is done with heat sinks with fins and fans. But there is no convection when there is no atmosphere, so other measures need to be taken.

Nuclear is not ready either. IMO we are behind where we should be. Although fuel cells exist (not quite sure how they work), most nuclear power is provided by converting it to heat and throwing it through a turbine or whatever. First of all this makes heat which is bad. It is very inefficient. It only seems efficient because of other factors. It also makes a mess.

Wind is a hopeful possiblilty, although the way we have become power crazy drarfs it's capacity, the cost would be enormous. Another school of thought proposed harnessing the currents of the oceans in much the same way as wind power does in the atmosphere. I think this one is promising, but expensive. If you're an engineer and understand the inherent differences between pnuematics and hydraulics, you see there is quite a potential.

The way I see it, to harness the power of the oceans' currunts we are faced with the following problems :

1. It will require the construction of a very large dam-like structure.

2. This paddle or whatever you want to call it will have to be impervious to seawater, as well as all of the other components.

3. The only way to make the system efficent and reliable will require the use of hydraulics, and the only logical choice for a medium is seawater. Forget mechanical linkage and who knows, all that stuff would fail within a decade.

Fusion is another promising technology, but is also fraught with problems. It really does make alot less of a mess if nothing goes wrong. It is still converting to heat though, no advancement seems to have been made out of that method. And if you think fission is dangerous, fusion makes it look like a three year old could do fusion. Hundreds of thousands of lives could depend on the power source feeding those coils that create the magnetic bottle. Not only that, but the pump that feeds them coolant, yes, the wires are actually tubing and they pump coolant through them. Remember, if anything fails, there is no chance to pull the rods or to shove the carbon and cadmium rods in to cool it down, it is BOOM NOW. Everybody who works there is dead at the very least.

With the general insidious imcompetence of people at large, I don't think we are ready for fusion.

What does that leave ?

I believe I am fairly well versed in science and technology, not that I have never been wrong, but I know more than average. If someone tells me I am wrong and supports the claim properly I appreciate the correction. But it seems to me that alot of these alternative energy sources have inherent problem with which we cannot effectively deal as of yet.

If that weren't true, I think we would just see the oil companies jump on that as their new profit engine. And I believe someday they will. Right now they want somebody else to develop the technology to the point where they see it as viable. Once it is they will see it as a threat, and buy it. Once it becomes their new profit engine, the Arabs will be able to sleep at night.

So the same elite will control that energy source and continue to bleed us to maintain their standard of living. I think to break the power structure we need individual sources of energy. I think the major problem is thinking big.

Let's say someone invented a really efficient way to get solar power, many times better than what we have today. We don't need one big one of these things downtown, we need millions of small ones feeding the needs of families, possibly apartment buildings and the like. That takes money out of the picture.

We could have a situation where a guy could buy a bigger facility and sell power to his neighbors. Or trade it for whatever. With modern battery technology, imagine a NiMh battery, the one that can play a half hour video on your cellphone, and make it the size of a car battery. We are talking some capacity here. People would have inverters to run the devices they have with synchonous motors or power transformers. We would trade power amongst ourselves with no intervention from government or big business. Really get off the grid.

This is really a horrid thought for the powers that be, and some of the technology already exists, we just ain't quite there yet. And it is obvious they don't want us there.

There is a whole lot more to this, and I don't have all that much time. Pot is illegal because of the oil companies. People look at me like I am some kind of a nut when I say this, but it is true. The various forms of hemp can replace many petroleum products as well as a shitload of bad drugs they push on us. Don't take my word for it, just see who lobbied, oops, they don't record every bribe.

Thing to realize is this. The average American thinks of oil and he thinks of gasoline or deisel fuel. Of course it is the most immediate need so it gets top billing. With some intelligent discussion he will realize that there is more to it, the first step, realizing that petroleum is in his oil he changes every once in a while. He can see that it is part of the hydraulic fluids in his transmission, power steering and brake system.

But what he doesn't see and what most people don't point out is all the other uses of petroleum. Look at your monitor right now (OK I guess you are), but it has a plastic frame no ? Don't tell me you got a home built monitor out of wood, there is plastic in it as surely as there is plastic in a plastic cup. What makes plastic ? Look at your kitchen floor, if you ain't got ceramic or marble or hardwood, you got dinosaur shit.

In fact linoleum was a waste product until somebody figured out how to paint it effectively.

Now for the kicker, gasoline was a waste product until Ransom Eli Olds came along. People were driving steamers around and shit, and they couldn't burn the gas in them because it was too fucking flammable ! Admittedly, Olds did not invent the car, nor the internal combustion engine, but what he did was to turn a waste product into a commodity. Similar things were going on elswhere, but he was the one who did it here.

We need a similar development today. If I could gather all the grass clippings and leaves in the neighborhood, and distill it, figure out how to get my car to run on it, how far do you think I would get ?

I put out some food for thought. Anyone care to take a bite ?

Oh, and just in case you have any faith left in the system, that $16B doesn't fall on Haliburton, they moved to Dubai.

Yes, I totally agree, we need to do something.

T

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry - 8/6/2007 3:38:26 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Corporate crooks and government crooks, they are still crooks. If your car is running crappy and it costs too much to fix, why by another crappy care. Fix one or the other, would be the more logical thing. Eiether fix government, or fix the "open market" in some way to balance it.

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

All we need is the right kind of oversight and all opposition would vanish to government run programs.

I just want value for my money. Crap like war in Iraq and spending all of our children's money now doesn't really cut it for me.

If we had Universal Healthcare, good welfare, social programs for the poor, a proper defense of the nation, tighter borders, etc - at least some of us might see some of our money back again. As it is it's take from the middle class and give it to the top 1%: Koch Industries, ADM, Haliburton, Blackwater, Etc. I just don't see the return there. Poof, it's all gone - into the hands of crooks...

Fuck that noise!


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry - 8/6/2007 6:14:05 PM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

SUNLIGHT -> SOLAR CELLS IN ORBIT -> MICROWAVES ( think "Cellphone" ) -> GROUNDSTATION -> Your Plug In Car.



I love where you are going with the post, farglebargle, but I used to help design satellites.

There is a mass / cost equation to putting a satellite in orbit.  This tends to be extremely expensive.

Satellites have a very low power to them.  Largely because of the mass / cost factor.  To make a solar panel will grant you a huge amount of energy, then you have to put it in a storage device, or you have to have it beam energy down.  There is a square or two over the distance aspect of radiation.  Further you get away, the energy to push it over the distance increases exponentially.

The satellites you seem to be talking about are geosynchronous.  A geosynchronous satellite within 1 degre of another satellite (they are in an orbit station 22 miles (iirc) high, where they oscillate north and south and remain over the same patch of land) messes up the communications.  Accordingly, there are 360 spots for geosynchronous satellites, the spaces have to be negotiated internationally, and most of them are taken.  China was taken to task for stealing (for lack of a better word) a slot allocated to the French.  Now neither of their satellites works.

Oops.

Satellites have a lifespan (assuming something going 22,000km/hour doesnt run into it) of about 50 years, give or take.  Then it falls apart, breaks up, and becomes something travelling 22,000km/hour to run into other satellites)

Theoretically, you could do it with low earth orbit satellites, but then we put up more crap orbiting the earth than we currently have, and as the space fills up we lose more satellites to garbage, which blows up more satellites, which turns into more space garbage, which...  I hope you see where I am going with this.

Satellite transmission, as you are discussing is not a long term solution, and a egregiously expensive and potentially dangerous one besides.

Sinergy

_____________________________

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RE: House puts $16 billion in taxes on oil industry - 8/6/2007 6:52:47 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

SUNLIGHT -> SOLAR CELLS IN ORBIT -> MICROWAVES ( think "Cellphone" ) -> GROUNDSTATION -> Your Plug In Car.



I love where you are going with the post, farglebargle, but I used to help design satellites.

There is a mass / cost equation to putting a satellite in orbit. This tends to be extremely expensive.


Yeah, that's where there's 200 Billion Dollars allocated to R&D for the heavy lifters, and it's STILL Cheaper than the war in Iraq.

quote:


Satellites have a very low power to them. Largely because of the mass / cost factor. To make a solar panel will grant you a huge amount of energy, then you have to put it in a storage device, or you have to have it beam energy down. There is a square or two over the distance aspect of radiation. Further you get away, the energy to push it over the distance increases exponentially.


You don't send satellites, and you don't send "Astronauts", you send Construction Crews, and parts, Mechanical and Electrical engineers.

They build it on-site.

The can assemble however large an array they'll like. Of course, when you build, say 100 of them, economies of scale and mass production kicks in.

quote:


The satellites you seem to be talking about are geosynchronous. A geosynchronous satellite within 1 degre of another satellite (they are in an orbit station 22 miles (iirc) high, where they oscillate north and south and remain over the same patch of land) messes up the communications. Accordingly, there are 360 spots for geosynchronous satellites, the spaces have to be negotiated internationally, and most of them are taken. China was taken to task for stealing (for lack of a better word) a slot allocated to the French. Now neither of their satellites works.

Oops.


Geostationary ( or "Clarke" ) orbit is about 22,236 Statue Miles AMSL.

And what are the National Security implications of being energy independent? That's worth re-evaluating whatever resources are limited in Geostationary orbits. And, of course, this will be running on a discrete frequency from any other telecom satellites. ( and we're more using the submarine cables because of the lower latency, too... But that's another story... )

You can get Cable TV, and Internet over satellite dishes, why not Satellite power ( that's an exaggeration, the groundstations, in practice will be like a couple of square miles... We'll just hang the antennas over the ugly and obsolete oil/coal and gas burning plants.

quote:


Satellites have a lifespan (assuming something going 22,000km/hour doesnt run into it) of about 50 years, give or take. Then it falls apart, breaks up, and becomes something travelling 22,000km/hour to run into other satellites)


That's why there are people there. Remember, this is predicated on getting heavy lift for less than 50 bucks/kg. Labor is cheap. ( Shielding is expensive. )

quote:


Satellite transmission, as you are discussing is not a long term solution, and a egregiously expensive and potentially dangerous one besides.

Sinergy


I disagree. In fact I offer that it's MORE DANGEROUS to keep wasting petrochemicals simply for energy.

It's raining soup, and we're too fucking dumb to make a bucket.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sinergy)
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