NATO expansion?

NATO expansion? (Full Version)

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cyberdude611 -> NATO expansion? (8/5/2007 2:37:27 PM)
Russia warns against Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO MOSCOW (AFP) - Russia warned on Friday that the entry of Georgia and Ukraine into NATO could affect its ties with the alliance and would do nothing to bolster trust in Europe, Interfax news agency reported. "Georgia's and Ukraine's joining of the alliance cannot fail to influence our relations with those countries, and with NATO as a whole," Interfax reported Deputy Foreign Minister Andrei Denisov as saying. "It is entirely obvious that it will not help strengthen the atmosphere of trust and mutual understanding in Europe, to put it mildly," he was reported as saying. Moscow sees no "rational arguments that this expansion will aid the security interests of these states," Denisov said. The United States reacted angrily to the comments, telling Russia it had no right to veto any decision by NATO on the entry of Georgia and Ukraine into the alliance. "Ukraine has not decided yet whether it wants to join NATO. NATO's door is open and the first thing is not what Russia wants but what Ukraine wants," US Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs Daniel Fried told AFP. "Georgia knows what it wants. Georgia wants to join NATO and it has some work to do, to consolidate its reforms and this will take some time but nobody gets to veto NATO's decisions," he stressed. Fried was participating at a summit of heads of government of southern European countries held in the southern Croatian Adriatic resort of Dubrovnik. Russia has strenuously objected to the NATO membership goals of Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili and of his Ukrainian counterpart Viktor Yushchenko, as part of their move towards the West. Both countries face serious obstacles to joining, including public opposition in Ukraine and two separatist conflicts in Georgia. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/russianatoukraine;_ylt=AsuZTc0iqXqovja9VkJ6p0t_5GIA

BlueCollar -> RE: NATO expansion? (8/6/2007 3:38:55 AM)
Invite Russia to join NATO. Problem solved. Oh, and don't think it's that far-fetched of an idea. There are plenty of politicians, defence analysts, and foreign affairs officials from both sides who think it's a reasonable concept.

meatcleaver -> RE: NATO expansion? (8/6/2007 4:02:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlueCollar Invite Russia to join NATO. Problem solved. Oh, and don't think it's that far-fetched of an idea. There are plenty of politicians, defence analysts, and foreign affairs officials from both sides who think it's a reasonable concept. Now you are being just too sensible![;)] The best way to deal with Russia is to tie them into the economic and defence fabric of Europe, not keep alienating them through aggressive actions such as placing missiles on their borders.

Stephann -> RE: NATO expansion? (8/6/2007 5:03:11 AM)
I thought the exact same thing. Honestly, I think there's a great deal political power to gain on both sides of the ocean, from a US/Russian military partnership. Too many folks are banking on old hatreds, unfortunately, and seem to see them as just another way to keep the horse blinded. Stephan

mnottertail -> RE: NATO expansion? (8/6/2007 5:31:33 AM)
Georgia and the Ukraine are the most lucious of areas in the old soviet union, russia is a drag on the other areas, I would think that Georgia and the Ukraine would be better off being punished by the russians and coming to the dark side. Russia would hardly go to war FOR German interests, seems they had a dust up over there (some time ago now) cost em a few million folk right off and the aftermath of that is still felt today what with the missing shoes at the table and all. Nah, I don't think Russia is playing NATO roulette.

cyberdude611 -> RE: NATO expansion? (8/6/2007 1:47:09 PM)
After 40 years of Cold War nuclear standoff.... there is still some trust issues on both sides when it comes to defense. And both sides still have cold warriors in the upper ranks of the government.

BlueCollar -> RE: NATO expansion? (8/6/2007 10:10:09 PM)
I'm actually surprised with a lot of these responses! I was thinking I'd run into the old-school xenophobic crowd like in the other threads. Meatcleaver, I couldn't agree more with your post, as well. I admit that there are a lot of hurdles in the way for better co-operation between Russia and the west, and as mentioned, there are still a lot of "cold warriors" on both sides of the equation that are ver suspicious of the other. The old guard are dlowly dying off, though, and not a lot of people are wanting the old days to return, so I think there is hope.

popeye1250 -> RE: NATO expansion? (8/6/2007 10:51:40 PM)
NATO is another thing the U.S. needs to get out of. It's just another bueracracy trying to perpetuate itself as all bueracracies do. It's sole reason for being doesn't even exist anymore! And you can be sure that it's costing U.S. Taxpayers money every year. Can't we belong to anything without it costing us truckloads of money? "Let's get the U.S. to join XYZ and then we'll get them to pay for everything!" No thanks!

cyberdude611 -> RE: NATO expansion? (8/6/2007 11:09:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlueCollar I'm actually surprised with a lot of these responses! I was thinking I'd run into the old-school xenophobic crowd like in the other threads. Meatcleaver, I couldn't agree more with your post, as well. I admit that there are a lot of hurdles in the way for better co-operation between Russia and the west, and as mentioned, there are still a lot of "cold warriors" on both sides of the equation that are ver suspicious of the other. The old guard are dlowly dying off, though, and not a lot of people are wanting the old days to return, so I think there is hope. Russia seems to be anxious to work with the west when it comes to science, technology, or money. But defense and political issues remain a big sticking point. Russia and NASA maintain a very close relationship. And as we speak a number of Russian engineers are in the US trying to get ideas on how to improve their country's electrical grid. Tourism in Moscow is also becoming a major industry and has turned into a major cash flow.

popeye1250 -> RE: NATO expansion? (8/7/2007 5:28:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 quote: ORIGINAL: BlueCollar I'm actually surprised with a lot of these responses! I was thinking I'd run into the old-school xenophobic crowd like in the other threads. Meatcleaver, I couldn't agree more with your post, as well. I admit that there are a lot of hurdles in the way for better co-operation between Russia and the west, and as mentioned, there are still a lot of "cold warriors" on both sides of the equation that are ver suspicious of the other. The old guard are dlowly dying off, though, and not a lot of people are wanting the old days to return, so I think there is hope. Russia seems to be anxious to work with the west when it comes to science, technology, or money. But defense and political issues remain a big sticking point. Russia and NASA maintain a very close relationship. And as we speak a number of Russian engineers are in the US trying to get ideas on how to improve their country's electrical grid. Tourism in Moscow is also becoming a major industry and has turned into a major cash flow. Cyber, yeah, all that stuff. And we have exchange programs with colleges too so I really don't see why keeping "NATO" going is really neccessary. Of course all the tens of thousands of paper-pushers in "NATO" are probably the ones yelling the loudest to keep it going. They have a good thing going there you know! Anyone know how many people "work" for NATO?

BlueCollar -> RE: NATO expansion? (8/8/2007 2:13:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 Russia seems to be anxious to work with the west when it comes to science, technology, or money. But defense and political issues remain a big sticking point. Russia and NASA maintain a very close relationship. And as we speak a number of Russian engineers are in the US trying to get ideas on how to improve their country's electrical grid. Tourism in Moscow is also becoming a major industry and has turned into a major cash flow. I'm actually quite glad you mentioned Russian and NASA. For me, a real defining moment came the day of the Columbia shuttle disaster. Within hours of the accident Russian space authorities were already compiling all the info they had from tracking the flight and offered to send up supplies to the ISS via rocket while the shuttles were grounded. It was a very well-received show of co-operation and support. As for the legitimacy of NATO, I'm actually a big proponent of the defence organisation. It certainly has the power to do more action than the UN which is mired down by the politicising of the superpowers in the Security Council.

Politesub53 -> RE: NATO expansion? (8/8/2007 2:53:13 AM)
The Eu and Russia already have the Partnership for co-operation and Agreement. This will be renewed automatically this year and includes things like human rights. Looking back to how far we have come since the cold war, things don`t look to bad. The main danger of Russia joining Nato is how the Chinese would react. In as much as they would feel even more isolated. [;)]

BlueCollar -> RE: NATO expansion? (8/8/2007 6:54:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 The Eu and Russia already have the Partnership for co-operation and Agreement. This will be renewed automatically this year and includes things like human rights. Looking back to how far we have come since the cold war, things don`t look to bad. The main danger of Russia joining Nato is how the Chinese would react. In as much as they would feel even more isolated. [;)] That's a really good point that I must confess, even I never really put a lot of thought into it. Not that China seems to be in any hurray to rattle sabres with Russia/Europe, but I can definitely see them getting a little anxious over a north-asian military/political bloc. I don't think it would become a major issue though, China is more interested in opening it borders to trade and incoming wealth to start moving into an isolationist trend.

pahunkboy -> RE: NATO expansion? (8/8/2007 9:27:30 AM)
stranger things have happened. if nato got too big the powers that be will simply form some other type of alliance= reducing the origanal to window dressing.,

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