RE: submissiveness without trust? (Full Version)

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ProlificNeeds -> RE: submissiveness without trust? (7/25/2007 11:18:07 AM)

Just because someone is both male and claims to be dominant, doesn't mean they deserve your submission, or trust. If you're wary, make 'em earn it. Stick to friendships, any Dom who can treat you good without promise of getting anything BUT friendship, is probably worth keeping on your list of potentials. A Dom who just sees 'unavailable' and moves on? Probably not worth it. Only time will tell what their personality is like, so put in the time before forking over your heart, and figure out what they're like.
Spending time to collect a few dominant friends might help you realize they're not all jerks too, it gives you a more realistic perspective to be surrounded by good friends, than to struggle finding a relationship.



MzMia -> RE: submissiveness without trust? (7/25/2007 11:42:06 AM)

First of all big {{{{{Hugs}}}}}}, I feel the hurt in your post.
Now, you have gotten excellent advice here from several people.
 
Let me add, that there is no substitute for taking things SLOWLY, and
getting to know someone WELL, especially before moving in with them.
 
How long did you know the second Dom before you moved in?
It takes me a month or 2 before I am willing to meet someone online, and a
few weeks before I will go out with someone I meet offline.
I do not rush into relationships, I stopped that around the age of say, 25?

But I digress.
I will not consider collaring anyone, unless I have been involved with them a minimum of 1 year.
**I may change that soon to 2-3 years**
Please, please, take control of your life and set boundaries and limits.
Make people prove that they are honest and decent and worthy of you.
I sense you are a beautiful person and soul and that maybe you are just giving way too much to soon.
If someone is not willing to take it slow, and get to know you well first, maybe that is not the person for you.
Take care of you and good luck.



MzMia -> RE: submissiveness without trust? (7/25/2007 11:50:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greeneyes1962

I have trust issues, more with my emotions than anything else about me.

Take it slowly, get to know someone well before you commit.

Lots of communication. I knew Master for a good 6 months of constant talking, discussions on what we wanted, before I completely trusted him. Only a few months ago, was I really ready to move forward to the M/s relationship he wants (after 18 months of knowing him).

He is the most patient man I have ever known. Something I really needed.

[sm=applause.gif]
Okay, greeneyes has stated and given a great example of someone that moved forward,
BEING cautious and had a happy ending.
Her Master wanted and loved her and allowed her to slowly open up and trust him,
like a beautiful butterfly.
LOL
Did I say that?
I need a nap!



MistressDiane -> RE: submissiveness without trust? (7/25/2007 12:29:25 PM)

I really don't have any great words of wisdom, nothing I can say to soothe your heart but maybe you can find some comfort in the fact that there's plenty of us out here that can relate.  The questions you bring to mind are questions I've been asking myself for a very long time and yet to find suitable answers for.
We hear so much about trust, how important it is yet throughout our lives run across so many that have no regard for that thing that is so vitally important. It's tough when your trust is betrayed by a friend or family member but when it's desecrated by someone you've given your heart and very life to.....it's devastating. They play with it like it's a toy, use it against you like a weapon, smear it in your face like it's something dirty. You question yourself, "how could I have been so stupid" ? Don't they realize that you've given them a most, fragile, sacred part of yourself ? Don't they realize that you've extended yourself and made yourself vulnerable having faith that they will cherish that which you have given them and having faith that they will  protect that faith and that trust? Do they even care? Evidentally not. That brings me to the conclusion that they have much bigger issues than I do. The ironic thing is that they "expect" you to hand over that trust and we do all too often, blindly at times because we want so badly for someone we can believe in.
No matter what the whys and hows you made the right decision in getting out of there. Personally I feel that you've made a huge stride in self by standing up and saying "Fuck you, I deserve better than this"!
I'm one of those who does want to believe in others and I extend myself too quickly at times. It's a character flaw I suppose. (and then again some are just really accomplished at making you *think* they are worthy of your trust only to find out too late in the game that they don't have a clue, you know... they can sure talk the talk but in reality can't hardly put one foot in front of the other without getting all tripped up). I'm also one that once I've given you my trust and I realize you have no intention of appreciating it for what it is or any idea of how to handle it , even if I do keep you in my life to one extent or another, I will never fully trust you again. It always nags at the back of my mind creating anger and resentment. Forgive and Forget? It's just not in me.
I can't tell you how to trust again, I'm sure though that you will and eventually, providing that you continue to learn and grow, it'll be given to someone that deserves it.



submissiveness -> RE: submissiveness without trust? (7/25/2007 1:35:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDiane

I really don't have any great words of wisdom, nothing I can say to soothe your heart but maybe you can find some comfort in the fact that there's plenty of us out here that can relate.  The questions you bring to mind are questions I've been asking myself for a very long time and yet to find suitable answers for.
We hear so much about trust, how important it is yet throughout our lives run across so many that have no regard for that thing that is so vitally important. It's tough when your trust is betrayed by a friend or family member but when it's desecrated by someone you've given your heart and very life to.....it's devastating. They play with it like it's a toy, use it against you like a weapon, smear it in your face like it's something dirty.

You question yourself, "how could I have been so stupid" ?
Its difficult to look at yourself sometimes.  You hit the nail on the head here..  HOW COULD I BE SO STUPID.  I feel like a complete fool.  I feel used, used up.  HOW could I not see what was happening,  I'm a desperate person, thats my only excuse!
Desperate lonely people do foolish things..  It wasn't all his fault, who knows maybe he was being kind allowing me to stay around.
Regardless of all that, I'm out!  He and me will be better off. 

Don't they realize that you've given them a most, fragile, sacred part of yourself ? Don't they realize that you've extended yourself and made yourself vulnerable having faith that they will cherish that which you have given them and having faith that they will  protect that faith and that trust? Do they even care? Evidentally not. That brings me to the conclusion that they have much bigger issues than I do. The ironic thing is that they "expect" you to hand over that trust and we do all too often, blindly at times because we want so badly for someone we can believe in.

You've read my mind!  Thank you for these words.


No matter what the whys and hows you made the right decision in getting out of there. Personally I feel that you've made a huge stride in self by standing up and saying "Fuck you, I deserve better than this"!

I had to leave,  I was self destructing by staying.  I was turning into nothing,  I could feel myself drowning.  Everyday I became more and more useless,  I couldn't do anything right.  I had to save myself. 

I'm one of those who does want to believe in others and I extend myself too quickly at times. It's a character flaw I suppose. (and then again some are just really accomplished at making you *think* they are worthy of your trust only to find out too late in the game that they don't have a clue, you know... they can sure talk the talk but in reality can't hardly put one foot in front of the other without getting all tripped up). I'm also one that once I've given you my trust and I realize you have no intention of appreciating it for what it is or any idea of how to handle it , even if I do keep you in my life to one extent or another, I will never fully trust you again. It always nags at the back of my mind creating anger and resentment. Forgive and Forget? It's just not in me.
I can't tell you how to trust again, I'm sure though that you will and eventually, providing that you continue to learn and grow, it'll be given to someone that deserves it.


You've taken the words right out of my mouth.  I'm a good person,  I love people!   I love to make people happy!  I love the thought of being loved.  I want to believe in people, I trust them,  I trust there words.  I'm devasted by his words now!   He blames me for our relationship failure!   I didn't know the person I was dealing with.  Your all very right in saying I moved to fast. 
 
I'm going to take sometime to heal,  I have to..  I'm no good to anyone at present. 
 
Thank you for this post.  You wrote exactly what I'm feeling. 



chey -> RE: submissiveness without trust? (7/25/2007 1:42:57 PM)

submissiveness, I have no words of wisdom only to say that I have insecurities too, I think we all do. I keep an online journal. It is not open to anyone but me (unless I give out the address) but it helps me talk myself through thoughts and issues. Maybe something like that could work for you? There are times when I go back and read old posts that I cannot believe I felt that way or am surprised at how much I have changed. Anyway, it helps me a lot.
Good Luck and hang in there!

cheyenne



submissiveness -> RE: submissiveness without trust? (7/25/2007 1:46:12 PM)

I will give it a try.  Thank you!



SexyRed -> RE: submissiveness without trust? (7/25/2007 1:52:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Learn why YOU choose such cold hearted idiots?  What patterns of yours cause you to meet men like this, what causes you to entertain a relationship with them, and what allows you to fall in love with them.

They ARE assholes but YOU chose them, figure out why and you will be a lot happier.


You know I am not picking on you but I am deathly sick of this tact. We don't have a "pattern". You keep trying to meet someone NORMAL and try to trust again based on what someone does and says and you can do all the right things and still they fuck up. Not you.

I know many, many amazing women who are intelligent, self aware, therapy veterans, sophisticated, savvy, kind, generous and confident and yes, they still get fucked over by men who create a lack of trust towards men in general.

And yes, I agree that one has to look inward and see what it is that is attracting someone to a particular man, but when the men involved are all different in so many ways, then there is no "pattern". It could be just rotten luck.

So, while it is fabulous to always blame the victim, perhaps we should be blaming the other parties for lying, cheating, withdrawing, betrayals, non-communication, etc.

And go ahead and say that I must be bitter; I am at the moment because I have been through therapy, relationships, thought I learned everything about my motivations and desires and yet still it can happen.

Why? because this game called life and relationships throws punches that you are unprepared for, and you don't know fully what the other person intends, wants, or what motivates them even if you think you do.



CypherEnigma -> RE: submissiveness without trust? (7/25/2007 1:57:16 PM)

Submissiveness. I know how you feel. I have spent the last year or so trying to learn to trust myself again. When i sat down and really thought about it, it was trusting my own judgements that i feared. I actually blamed myself for the shortcomings with my past Dom. And here after months of therapy i realize, there was nothing "safe, sane or consentual" about him. I remained and tried to serve after my trust was gone. Thats when it got really bad. It got violent and i was left feeling like a complete failure. I was also extremely suicidal. It took months to see i wrapped myself around the wrong person. It was extremely difficult to break the connection and walk away.
Trust is not easy to gain once lost. All i can say is take time to heal. Thats what worked for me. And blessings to you.



slaveish -> RE: submissiveness without trust? (7/25/2007 2:13:10 PM)

Mm, yes. Trust is one of my big issues too. Make a list of what attracted you to Dom #1. Make a list of what attracted you to Dom #2. See if you see a pattern there. You may find that these "attractors" are carryovers from childhood, trying to heal a past relationship (most likely a caregiver) with people in the present. It was certainly an eye-opener for me. Good luck.



shyinini -> RE: submissiveness without trust? (7/25/2007 2:17:25 PM)

SirDominic and Michael got it !!   Hit the nail on the head !!

quote:

ORIGINAL: submissiveness

*snipage
Maybe I allowed this because I have little respect for myself.   *snipage
I don't deserve the kind of treatment that I allowed these men to inflict on me.
*snipage 
I don't know what draws me to assholish men, its always been that way.   I have little selfworth and possibly I'm thinking their the best I can do.  
*final snip 


MistressDiana got the emotions.
 
I will be candid but I embrace you for I DO empathize.
 
The low self esteem has been danced about with.
Self examination takes alot of transparency and vulnerabilty to admit things to ourselves we DONT want to admit.  BUT it does lead to self awareness and once we know WHO we are, we are able to accept and find ourselves. Find out who we REALLY are.
 
I just submitted a new thread admitting I tend toward narcissistic and antisocial/sociopathic men ! Damn that is like falling on a huge spear !
NO THE MEN ARE NOT FULLY TO BLAME.  If you, submissiveness, continue to say this, you are taking NO RESPONSIBILTY for your own actions ~~~ low self esteem, allowing them to degrade you, lack of self awareness, low self worth.

No one can make you FEEL worthless. Only you can.

Trust is NOT your issue in my POV, you trust simply and niavely even maybe; demanding and needing to be wanted and cherished and adored, but the men CANT treat you any better than you see yourself !!
You have every right to be cherished, adored and wanted; but you must do those things for yourself before a man will do them becasue of who you are.

I had to learn that the hard way over this past year !!
My therapist told me I needed to get a grip on my own sense of self worth because I wore the clothes that everyone saw but me, "I am worthless."
 
 
Sir's cherished, adored owned property; because I see MYSELF that way as well.
 
{{{{{{{{ hugs}}}}}}}}



MasDom -> RE: submissiveness without trust? (7/25/2007 2:21:55 PM)

Some times the girls want some one who is forthrite.
And some times they want a sincere careing lover.

Problem is wich do you really want as a Master.
Now dont get all confused by that question.
       Some of this just have a diffrent tempo is all...

But I do agree, theirs nothing wiser then takeing it slow.
Other wise people will always find a reason.



submissiveness -> RE: submissiveness without trust? (7/25/2007 2:30:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CypherEnigma

Submissiveness. I know how you feel. I have spent the last year or so trying to learn to trust myself again. When i sat down and really thought about it, it was trusting my own judgements that i feared. I actually blamed myself for the shortcomings with my past Dom. And here after months of therapy i realize, there was nothing "safe, sane or consentual" about him. I remained and tried to serve after my trust was gone. Thats when it got really bad. It got violent and i was left feeling like a complete failure. I was also extremely suicidal. It took months to see i wrapped myself around the wrong person. It was extremely difficult to break the connection and walk away.
Trust is not easy to gain once lost. All i can say is take time to heal. Thats what worked for me. And blessings to you.



Blessings to you dear girl.   I have to admit I thought of suicide myself.  I understand the failure feeling all to well.
The really sad thing is that I allowed this man to treat me like I was nothing,  that I had no feelings, that I wasn't worth the air I was breathing.  I had to make a decision, to live or to die because, death was better than what he was offering me.   He treated everyone better than me, even the neighbors dog. 
I cried myself to sleep many many nights, asking myself why?  Why was I doing this.  Why was I allowing him to do this to me.  
I don't know,  one day something happen,  I stood up to myself and said NO!   I deserve more. 

Right now,  I just want peace.   I want the time to be by myself.  By myself I don't have to answer to anyone.  I can dress like I want,  I can sleep all day if that what I want.  I don't have to worry about pleasing him.  I don't to worry about having enough time to do everything he wants. 

I'm free..  It feels good!



MasterFireMaam -> RE: submissiveness without trust? (7/25/2007 5:00:50 PM)

How would you learn to trust again if these were vanilla relationships? Start there.

Master Fire



beargonewild -> RE: submissiveness without trust? (7/25/2007 5:19:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: submissiveness

Long story short I left.   How does one be a submissive when you are afraid to trust.   My heart has been riped out and stomped on twice, both times Dominant men where to blame.  I want this lifestyle more than I can tell you but there has to be trust.  How do I trust again?


Been there and done that! I dealt with major trust issues prior to me leaving my previous master and have ben slowly working on trusting people more. What I find is I have reached deep inside myself to see why I have these issues and force myself to face them and get over it. I've realized that it was up to myself to overcome the mistrust of people before I'd be able and redy to seek out another. What helps me is to talk with close friends and Doms who I do trust and respect  for advice and guidance. Sofar this is working for me and I am now findig my self confidence has improved and the need and craving to submit is resurfacing.



octavia -> RE: submissiveness without trust? (7/25/2007 5:23:50 PM)

Following some good advice I was once given,  I  wrote down all the negative characteristics of my past lovers.  Made a few lists, then I went through and circled the characcteristics they had in common.  Sure there were things on everyones lists that was not in common, but the stuff they had in common, was what they had in common with me as well.  Those where the things about them that I kept finding myself attracted too.  So, no I dont end up in the same pattern everytime, many of them men are as different as night and day, but there have been some similarities and finding those and becoming aware has been enlightning.  I will warn you however that breaking free from those patterns and dating men with different sets of defects is super uncomfy!
LOL wayyyyyyyy outside my comfort zone.
Oh, yes the other part of this is to realize that all people have defects, therefor all men have defects, therefor all Dom's have defects.. so instead of searching for "perfect" I search for baggage that compliments my own. [;)]
octavia



greeneyes1962 -> RE: submissiveness without trust? (7/26/2007 1:25:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: greeneyes1962

I have trust issues, more with my emotions than anything else about me.

Take it slowly, get to know someone well before you commit.

Lots of communication. I knew Master for a good 6 months of constant talking, discussions on what we wanted, before I completely trusted him. Only a few months ago, was I really ready to move forward to the M/s relationship he wants (after 18 months of knowing him).

He is the most patient man I have ever known. Something I really needed.

[sm=applause.gif]
Okay, greeneyes has stated and given a great example of someone that moved forward,
BEING cautious and had a happy ending.
Her Master wanted and loved her and allowed her to slowly open up and trust him,
like a beautiful butterfly.
LOL
Did I say that?
I need a nap!


But it was a very apt simile.[:D]
And I do feel like a new person these days.



ExSteelAgain -> RE: submissiveness without trust? (7/26/2007 4:28:53 AM)

We want to be able to trust each other fast in this lifestyle because trust leads to a higher level of D/s dedication and play, usually something we all want. Submissives want to experience that privileged level of a D/s relationship and tend to overlook the faults and ulterior motives that may be right in front of them.

Trust and time simply go together. If you are into casual play, keep it in your mind as such and, again with time, that trust may develop with one of your casual friends to a degree far greater than you imagined. Just remember a few scene weekends are not going to give you an objective view.

If you are not into casual play, starting a friendship with a Dom without expectations of a relationship may lead you through the trust door. Those type friendships can be rewarding as you discuss personal issues and experiences without the need of worrying about the effect of your words on your partner and his view of you. When you connect with such a friend, anything is possible.



Kartusch -> RE: submissiveness without trust? (7/26/2007 8:43:54 PM)

This thread is an interesting read for me (as were the links to others of same type).  I  like to not think I have trust issues, the truth is  that I do have some.

I have been trying to mull on how these will effect me in a D/s dynamic when the time comes.  I am by nature overally trusting, but I was married  for 11 years to a pathological liar.  I am glad to say it did not make me bitter, but it did result in me being more causious than I like being.  I am working on that since I do not want my past to dictate my future for me.

Now to contradict some of what I say above ...One of the ways I have prevented myself from becoming bitter is to invest myself in the idea of pronoia - the suspicion the Universe is a conspiracy on your behalf. I know it sounds self centered and a bit on the hippy side of ideas, but it  works wonders. Instead of worrying and assuming ill intent, I assume good. 







came4U -> RE: submissiveness without trust? (7/26/2007 8:55:08 PM)

First of all, aren't they all nice in the beginning?

nice guys, frankly, makes me nervous.

I tend to be drawn towards assholes, like the old 'I'm gonna marry an alcoholic mmm weee, I'm gonna change him' philosophy LOL. At least you know what you are getting. (me nuts)

you see this type of 'nice guy' in 'nilla life too. Mr. nice guy who ends up being a wife-batterer., it could happen to anyone.

Mr. honeymoon stage can't even hold that thought for more than a few days, he is obviously not into you or bi-polar, not to mention a man-slut for persuing a new gal while being with you. He is a dolt, you are better off.

Trust, cannot be a given. You MUST demand it from the get-go.  Without trust for a man and from a man it is a wishywashy kinda fakeness going on. That trust is respect for the other person.

I doubt I will trust anyone thoroughly, I would be foolish to do that.  Trust as much as you can I guess. 

but, don't take my advice, I'm a cold, snarly bitch. lol



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