Ok... here goes nothin...

Ok... here goes nothin... (Full Version)

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satyrsnymph28 -> Ok... here goes nothin... (7/24/2007 1:22:20 PM)
Lets start with saying that I'm not writing this with the intention of offending anyone... Its just a question in my head... and something I've been thinking about... and talking about... for a while now. I have this belief in my head that BDSM is a justification for some things that would otherwise be illegal... Its mostly the financial stuff... Its ok to be a pro domme... and beat someone and charge them for it... but its illegal to sell sex... either way, its how the buyer gets their kicks... why is one wrong and the other ok... Its ok to have a stable of people who you enslave financially... but its illegal for someone to take charge over a group of women who are having sex for money, and asking for a cut of their pay... One is illegal and immoral... the other is... simply ok within the community that it exists in... truth be told... i don't understand the difference... I'm prepared for LOTS of angry "you don't know what you're talking about" responses... and truth is... I don't... thats why I'm asking... The negative responses are unavoidable, but I would like to thank those of you in advance who find themselves capable of responding to the question at hand and not getting defensive.

RCdc -> RE: Ok... here goes nothin... (7/24/2007 1:25:52 PM)
I do not see any difference in either. As long as people are consenting and informed - then what they do and who they pay for what is their choice. Peace the.dark.

Rover -> RE: Ok... here goes nothin... (7/24/2007 1:30:25 PM)
There are certainly people that use BDSM as rationalization for what they do. I don't beat and abuse my wife, I'm a sadist. I'm not a victim, I'm a masochist. My life isn't a shambles of my own doing, I just need a Master to guide me. And how did "legality" become a BDSM standard? Frankly, much of WIITWD is illegal, whether you call it BDSM or not. John

earthycouple -> RE: Ok... here goes nothin... (7/24/2007 1:35:04 PM)
I'm with John here... illegal and immoral to many is indeed BDSM just like prostitution or pimping. Those who are doing the pimping and prostitution don't feel they are being immoral. There is no difference beyond individiaul perceptions. We rationalize who we are until we find what makes us comfortable within our own skins. Some of us just have less rationalizing to do than others.

AquaticSub -> RE: Ok... here goes nothin... (7/24/2007 1:38:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: satyrsnymph28 Lets start with saying that I'm not writing this with the intention of offending anyone... Its just a question in my head... and something I've been thinking about... and talking about... for a while now. I have this belief in my head that BDSM is a justification for some things that would otherwise be illegal... Its mostly the financial stuff... Its ok to be a pro domme... and beat someone and charge them for it... but its illegal to sell sex... either way, its how the buyer gets their kicks... why is one wrong and the other ok... Because a long time ago people decided selling sex for money isn't ok. Pro dommes don't sell sex so it's not illegal. quote: Its ok to have a stable of people who you enslave financially... but its illegal for someone to take charge over a group of women who are having sex for money, and asking for a cut of their pay... It's legal in Nevada. quote: One is illegal and immoral... the other is... simply ok within the community that it exists in... truth be told... i don't understand the difference... I don't see either as wrong. One just happens to be illegal in most places. quote: I'm prepared for LOTS of angry "you don't know what you're talking about" responses... and truth is... I don't... thats why I'm asking... The negative responses are unavoidable, but I would like to thank those of you in advance who find themselves capable of responding to the question at hand and not getting defensive. Good luck with the thread.

Aneirin -> RE: Ok... here goes nothin... (7/24/2007 1:38:24 PM)
I don't suppose there is any difference in either,as dark said,as long as it is consenting and the people are informed it is down to their own choice. Where it all goes wrong,is when such activities fall under the beady eye of the law and those charged with enforcing it and any other busy body that wants to cause trouble.There things can be twisted to suit their purpose. Lots of things go on,prostitution and kinky games,they are not a problem if they are kept hidden. My belief is,if it harms none,then why not.

CitizenCane -> RE: Ok... here goes nothin... (7/24/2007 1:40:36 PM)
Yeah, I'm a little confused about the conflation of 'illegal' and 'immoral'. While it would be nice to think these things coincided, at least for the 'big stuff', I don't really see that strong a correlation. It's always been the case that when authorities attempt to 'legislate morality', many people find ways around it- sometimes breaking the law, sometimes just bending it. In Feudal Japan, for instance, the Shoguns liked to make a lot of laws to keep people from dressing opulently, and would regularly ban some really expensive type of finery. So, enterprising artisans would figure out a way to imitate the banned fabric or material, which would generally be much more labor intensive than the original, resulting in a vastly more expensive version of the same thing. Most of our laws regulating sex and the connection between money and sex are similarly short-sighted. I've always found it difficult to distinguish between 'marriage', which is 'moral' and 'legal' and 'prostititution', which is not. The biggest difference that I can see is that in marriage there's no set price for sex, it may cost you everything you have.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Ok... here goes nothin... (7/24/2007 1:41:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: satyrsnymph28 Its ok to be a pro domme... and beat someone and charge them for it... but its illegal to sell sex... either way, its how the buyer gets their kicks... why is one wrong and the other ok... Because our puritanical society still deems sex as something wrong, and certainly not legitimate to buy or sell. quote: Its ok to have a stable of people who you enslave financially... but its illegal for someone to take charge over a group of women who are having sex for money, and asking for a cut of their pay... Actually most people wouldn't say that's OK at all. And the people who WOULD say it's ok probably don't think those things should be illegal. We're very screwed up when it comes to sexuality- in the scene and outside of the scene, ESPECIALLY when it comes to money.

lonlyrossInNeed -> RE: Ok... here goes nothin... (7/24/2007 1:49:33 PM)
the way i think of it is if someone gets there kicks off in one way then that is fine as long as it is consensual and in some way safe it should be leagle

satyrsnymph28 -> RE: Ok... here goes nothin... (7/24/2007 1:50:30 PM)
i agree with that.. entirely... but i was curious as to why there is the descrepency and why some find one ok and the other not

Mercnbeth -> RE: Ok... here goes nothin... (7/24/2007 1:51:33 PM)
nymph2, Oh hell - that wasn't earth shattering or even controversial. quote: Its mostly the financial stuff... Its ok to be a pro domme... and beat someone and charge them for it... but its illegal to sell sex... either way, its how the buyer gets their kicks... why is one wrong and the other ok... As you point out, one is a legal issue the other is a moral issue. You shouldn't be able to understand or apply logic to the distinction because no logic applies. Neither should "wrong" apply, but the puritanical moral foundation of the US permeates the legal system. Think of it this way, "buyers" get their kicks from alcohol as well as marijuana. One is always illegal the other is sometimes illegal. The writer and subsequent voters in favor of the law placed their moral values and judgments on all the citizens. How does this occur? Perspective and selfishness prejudice. It is a matter of pronoun usage. YOU and THEY are perverted doing evil things that should result in culling YOU and THEY from society. I, on the other hand, have quirks and some kinky desires that don't harm anyone. In the first person - it's never "wrong"; only when the second and third person pronouns come into play is there a need to prosecute and condemn. The solution? You have to apply the first person pronoun to as much as possible to any infringement of expression, liberty, freedom. Some issues aren't so easy or so black and white. The easy one to point to is smoking. As long as the smoker needs to exhale and the smoking material generates smoke, the 'I' argument is debatable. However on the issue you raise, the moral laws concerning prostitution, whether in the form of Pro Domme or Pro sex partner are strictly arbitrary. You can't bring money in money as the distinction. How many determine if/when they will sleep with someone contingent on how nice a place they went to dinner? There is a very old joke about a man meeting a woman at a bar and asking her if she'd sleep with him if he gave her $1 Million dollars. She thinks about it for a bit, and agrees. He then asks if she'd sleep with him for $10 and she, obviously insulted, asks "what do you think I am a hooker?" He tells her that's already been established, now they are just negotiating price.

Archer -> RE: Ok... here goes nothin... (7/24/2007 2:00:36 PM)
The Pro Domme vs prostitute thing is actually a landmark legal case in US History. The case was filed as a prostitution case and when it finally wet to court the way the law was written it didn't actually fit "sex for money" as stated in the legal codes The case was against Baroness Monique Von Cleef 1965. A least that's the way I heard and read about it.

Lashra -> RE: Ok... here goes nothin... (7/24/2007 2:03:24 PM)
I don't see any difference as long as both are consensual between adults. Personally I think prostitution should be legalized in this country. But then you would have the "moral" majority screaming up a storm, the same ones who use "escort" services on the sly. I think the law needs to stay out of peoples bedrooms and sex lives and concentrate on the real crime that is going on in our country. ~Lashra

satyrsnymph28 -> RE: Ok... here goes nothin... (7/24/2007 2:09:45 PM)
it felt controvercial in my head... and if i hadn't thought it out, it probably would have been... its all in the wording, i believe... thanks for the great responses so far. i appreciate it.

Satyr6406 -> RE: Ok... here goes nothin... (7/24/2007 2:27:09 PM)
I don't think that just because something is illegal doesn't necessarily make it immoral. There are plenty of laws that the extremists (on both sides) have pushed into being. In Georgia, when I lived there, sodomy was made illegal. Now, for those of you not into anal sex, I'm sure you're dancing a jig and packing your bags. However, "sodomy" is actually defined as anything other than vaginal sex (and only penetration, for that matter). Meaning: I can go down on a lady and no one is guilty of sodomy but, if she goes down on me, I'm guilty of sodomy. Now, are there a great deal of people, here, that believe that sodomy is immoral? I would tend to doubt it but, I may be wrong. It's certainly illegal, though. I am also of the opinion that prostitution should be legal. I feel the same way about drugs, abortion, etc. That doesn't mean that I agree with those practices (there's where MY morals come in) but, if the behavior is not affecting anyone else, adult human beings have a right to debauch themselves in any way they see fit. Peace and comfort, Michael

satyrsnymph28 -> RE: Ok... here goes nothin... (7/24/2007 2:30:42 PM)
i agree... one is fact and the other is a matter of opinion... i guess i should have said it could be thought of as immoral, but it was illegal... i was told that being a Pro Domme was not illegal... i dont know if thats accurate or not... :: sigh :: its all so complicated lol

AquaticSub -> RE: Ok... here goes nothin... (7/24/2007 2:48:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: satyrsnymph28 i agree... one is fact and the other is a matter of opinion... i guess i should have said it could be thought of as immoral, but it was illegal... i was told that being a Pro Domme was not illegal... i dont know if thats accurate or not... :: sigh :: its all so complicated lol Being a pro domme is not illegal because pro dommes don't, legal ones, sell sex. They will whip you, humiliate you, trample on you, crack eggs on your head but not have sex with you.

MadRabbit -> RE: Ok... here goes nothin... (7/24/2007 2:56:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: satyrsnymph28 its all in the wording, i believe... Well, not opening the thread with "Why the hell does the public scene allow these damn whores to exist and operate?", like everyone else who starts recurring BDSM debate number #36, is defiently worth a few points.

AquaticSub -> RE: Ok... here goes nothin... (7/24/2007 2:59:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit quote: ORIGINAL: satyrsnymph28 its all in the wording, i believe... Well, not opening the thread with "Why the hell does the public scene allow these damn whores to exist and operate?", like everyone else who starts recurring BDSM debate number #36, is defiently worth a few points. Definately worth more than a few points!

bignipples2share -> RE: Ok... here goes nothin... (7/24/2007 3:37:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: satyrsnymph28 Lets start with saying that I'm not writing this with the intention of offending anyone... Its just a question in my head... and something I've been thinking about... and talking about... for a while now. I have this belief in my head that BDSM is a justification for some things that would otherwise be illegal... Its mostly the financial stuff... Its ok to be a pro domme... and beat someone and charge them for it... but its illegal to sell sex... either way, its how the buyer gets their kicks... why is one wrong and the other ok... One is selling Sex, supposedly the other is not. quote: Its ok to have a stable of people who you enslave financially... but its illegal for someone to take charge over a group of women who are having sex for money, and asking for a cut of their pay... Poly isn’t allowed in many areas, yet it exist. All parties are consenting and being taken care of in some agreed upon manner. Details are worked out in advance. Even a slave can walk out at anytime they choose with no consequences to their life, or limb. The stigma with prostitution and adding in the equation of a pimp: The majority of people believe the pimp has no regard for the girls. The girls are lured in with false promises and then later find themselves in a position they never agreed to and can’t get out of. Many are beaten, maimed or meet their deaths. When they’re no longer useful, or become older, they’re often sold to an ever worse pimp, or cast aside and have no way of support. They are left with nothing, zilch and now, not even a roof over their head. quote: One is illegal and immoral... the other is... simply ok within the community that it exists in... truth be told... i don't understand the difference... I also think prostitution should be legal. It’s legal in Nevada. The women working the houses love what they do. They are taken care of, paid well. They have the right to refuse a customer and not suffer repercussions that are not agreed upon. They can quit at anytime and have enough money to do whatever they see fit in their futures. ~Big

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