RE: Does Hugo Chavez want war with the US?

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RE: Does Hugo Chavez want war with the US? - 7/1/2007 3:41:02 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

Zzactly. Ever notice how... etc.

Picking on the weak while sucking up to the strong is nothing new in either human relationships as well as history. It's our tribal origins getting us into trouble again. We are a hierarchical species. We form hierarchies in all levels of society. One's (whether one is a person or a nation) place in the hierarchy is determind by how much power we have and the use of that power. We (again, as individuals or nations) seek to dominate those we perceive as weaker than us while sucking up (and while keeping an eye open for ways we can undermine) those we perceive as stronger than us. We have repeated this pattern time and time again.

I certainly hope there is no world wide revolution in which the United States is "taken down" - both for our sake as well as everybody elses (can you imagine the amount of damage we could inflict on the way down?) but if there is what do you think will happen next? Will those who are now at the top usher in a new era of peace and prosperity? A golden age of mankind? Or will it be the same old, same old, with the seeds planted for the next revolution?

I am not excusing the United States (or anyone for that matter - that really seems to piss some people off) from being a bully but niether should we be surprised. What do you expect people with power to do? We (by which I mean humanity) need to recognize this pattern before we can break out of it. how we do that is another long winded rant of mine that I don't feel like getting into now.

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RE: Does Hugo Chavez want war with the US? - 7/1/2007 11:09:40 PM

Termyn8or

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Marc, figgered that out eh ? Thing is that it is not manly, moral or right. We as humans must act human towards each other or else this whole crock of fucking shit doesn't work at all.

What happens to the eigth grade bully when five fourth graders come at him all at once with razor blades, guitar strings and maybe one of their dads' hammers ? What if one of the kids Fathers (read me) gets pissed off and snuffs the littlle muthafucker out. Take my kid's lunch money, that WILL fucking stop. I would teach my kid like that, no subervience to anyone.

Of course theat doesn't mean I wouldn't like to bottom sometimes. But real life is a different matter.What is happening in the world is the same goddam thing as the jukebox wars of the 40s. Rival companies with a territory. Ever hear of a no fly zone ?

How about a "no SEBRING" zone., How about a no Pabst zone ? I have seen it, and the olman (68) has seen even more.

And this brings me to the crux of the matter. Everyone says 'if I had known then what I know now', and they mean it. Well I have the $64 question, WHY DIDN'T WE ?

If in Venezuela they can keep a dictator in charge against the entire might of the US military and intelligence forces, perhaps I should go there..

Go figure, and let me know when you get here.

T

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RE: Does Hugo Chavez want war with the US? - 7/2/2007 6:45:28 AM

subfever

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
...Does Hugo Chavez want war with the US? He'd have to be barking mad. I'm sure he wants the same as other parts of the world - an end to US influence/dominance over their region. You can't blame them. If the shoe was on the other foot, would you stand for it?

This boils it all down, and puts it in a nutshell.

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RE: Does Hugo Chavez want war with the US? - 7/2/2007 7:06:30 AM

cyberdude611

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

If in Venezuela they can keep a dictator in charge against the entire might of the US military and intelligence forces, perhaps I should go there..

Venzuela hasn't faced the US military. And there has only been one assassination attempt.

Chavez though has a problem. Most people are not buying his propaganda. Exxon-Mobile just recently turned down a deal with Venezuela that would have given that corporation billions of dollars. Why did they turn the deal down? Hugo Chavez. Alaska last year refused cheaper fuel prices because the energy would come from Venezuela. Instead, the people went with more expensive companies.

Chavez has also tried to influence democratic elections in South America. Peru most recently publically told Hugo to back off and not to interfere with their elections.

If the US ever went to war with Venezuela, it wouldn't last long at all. And Hugo will be without allies, just like Saddam. Columbia has already ratched-up military forces on the border with Venezuela. They say they don't trust Hugo.

Hugo has tried very hard to try to harm what he considers to be "American imperialism." But even though he has hop-scotched all across the globe, he has been unable to convince any nation to change it's relations with the United States. Chavez has been to Moscow, Paris, Beijing, Brussells, Cairo, etc.. None of these nations are changing their relationship with the United States. In reality, Chavez's bark is a whole lot worse than his bite. The only people he seems to be able to make an alliance with is America's enemies like Syria, North Korea, and Iran. Even the UN denied his country a seat on the Security Council.

This just proves that even today, no one wants to be on America's shit list.

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 7/2/2007 7:07:16 AM >

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RE: Does Hugo Chavez want war with the US? - 7/2/2007 7:13:49 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

This just proves that even today, no one wants to be on America's shit list.

Not wanting to be on the US shit list is not the same as supporting American policy. Many new African oil producers are jumping into the arms of China rather than deal with the US. That says something about the US reputation in the world.

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RE: Does Hugo Chavez want war with the US? - 7/2/2007 7:27:56 AM

Alumbrado

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Many new African oil producers are jumping into the arms of China rather than deal with the US. That says something about the US reputation in the world.

Or, that says something about the effect of the Chinese army's presence in the oil rich/production poor regions of Africa

It is still imperialism, even if this time it isn't being implemented by the US.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 7/2/2007 8:24:41 AM >

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RE: Does Hugo Chavez want war with the US? - 7/2/2007 7:35:16 AM

Marc2b

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>>> WARNING: I AM IN FULL RANT MODE! <<<

quote:

Marc, figgered that out eh ? Etc...

Figured it out! I’ve been trying to get you and half a dozen other dim bulbs around here to figure it out! Trying to make people understand the patterns that we repeat over and over. To look outside those patterns and see their cause. Trying to make people understand that throwing your support behind a dictator who likes to whip his people in to a frenzy of hate is not a solution to the problem of other dictators and other’s people’s hatred – IT IS THE FUCKING PROBLEM! Instead I get ideological (read: closed minded) bullshit excuses about "Right wing thugs," and the "uber rich," on one side and ideological (read: closed minded) bullshit excuses about "unpatriotic liberals" on the other! Neither side realizing that the are mirror images of each other.

quote:

Thing is that it is not manly, moral or right. We as humans must act human towards each other or else this whole crock of fucking shit doesn't work at all.

BINGO! The problem is our tribal thinking. Those outside the tribe (or whatever psudeo-tribes we substitute with today) just don’t count as human beings. This is the root of the human capacity to be compassionate to some while being cruel (or at least uncaring to others) to others. Thompsonx is a perfect example. He has thrown his sympathies in with Chavez and the Venezuelan people – adopted them as a pseudo-tribe, in other words. Therefore, anyone who criticize his pseudo-tribe automatically becomes less than human (they are always right wing thugs or the uber rich). Being less than human, it is okay to persecute them. It is okay to harm them. They had it coming after all. Yet he blissfully remains unaware that he is no different than the other side who likewise see him as less than human. He fails to grasp that if you deny the other, you deny yourself.

quote:

What happens to the eigth grade bully when five fourth graders come at him all at once with razor blades, guitar strings and maybe one of their dads' hammers ? What if one of the kids Fathers (read me) gets pissed off and snuffs the littlle muthafucker out. Take my kid's lunch money, that WILL fucking stop. I would teach my kid like that, no subervience to anyone.

Of course theat doesn't mean I wouldn't like to bottom sometimes. But real life is a different matter.What is happening in the world is the same goddam thing as the jukebox wars of the 40s. Rival companies with a territory. Ever hear of a no fly zone ?

How about a "no SEBRING" zone., How about a no Pabst zone ? I have seen it, and the olman (68) has seen even more.

All examples of exactly what I am talking about. Bullies on the playground, sports teams battling for the championship, street gangs battling for turf, businesses battling for market share, nations battling for empire – it all stems from the same source.

quote:

And this brings me to the crux of the matter. Everyone says 'if I had known then what I know now', and they mean it. Well I have the $64 question, WHY DIDN'T WE ?

Because most of us are to wrapped up in our own psychological need for belonging and domination to realize that we – not just they (the other) – are part of the problem.

If in Venezuela they can keep a dictator in charge against the entire might of the US military and intelligence forces, perhaps I should go there..
I would recommend against it. Places where mass emotion hold sway are very dangerous.

quote:

Go figure, and let me know when you get here.

I arrived there ten years ago. I’m well ahead, now. Let me know when you catch up.

Peace and prosperity to you and yours,
Marc2b

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RE: Does Hugo Chavez want war with the US? - 7/2/2007 8:23:46 AM

Alumbrado

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...Thing is that it is not manly, moral or right. We as humans must act human towards each other or else

A contradiction... whatever humans do to each other (for good or ill), that is, by definition, 'acting human'... and idealized standards of behavior are more honored in the breach than the observance.

People are hard wired in their personal and group behaviors (based on needs and motivation touched upon above, such as power over others), and thousands upon thousands of years of pointing out that there must be a better way hasn't changed that hardwiring one iota.

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RE: Does Hugo Chavez want war with the US? - 7/2/2007 10:15:25 AM

Termyn8or

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OK, I think the correct word there would've been humane.

More later.

T

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RE: Does Hugo Chavez want war with the US? - 7/2/2007 10:25:18 AM

Alumbrado

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Ooooops... my bad, must have been listening to too much White Zombie

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RE: Does Hugo Chavez want war with the US? - 7/2/2007 10:42:29 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

Many new African oil producers are jumping into the arms of China rather than deal with the US. That says something about the US reputation in the world.

Or, that says something about the effect of the Chinese army's presence in the oil rich/production poor regions of Africa

It is still imperialism, even if this time it isn't being implemented by the US.

It's a preference for Chineese imperialism over US imperialism. However, China hasn't got enough military in Africa to subjugate anyone by force, they are using the west's tried and tested measures, finance.

It is the US and not China that has troops all over the world.

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RE: Does Hugo Chavez want war with the US? - 7/2/2007 10:49:13 AM

Alumbrado

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Correct, China has placed enough armed 'refinery technicians' reporting to 'managers' who also hold rank in the People's Army to secure the sites needed to control oil production when it gets up to speed, they apparently are not following the old model of subjugating entire populations.

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