Tojo's granddaughter

Tojo's granddaughter (Full Version)

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Level -> Tojo's granddaughter (6/11/2007 4:11:36 PM)
TOKYO - Every morning for the last three months, Yuko Tojo has prayed at a war shrine for Japan’s fallen soldiers — including her grandfather, Gen. Hideki Tojo, the executed World War II premier who ordered the 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor. Yuko, 68, will fight her own battle in July, when she competes as an independent in elections for parliament’s upper house. An ultra-nationalist, her mission is to restore Japan’s honor by scrapping its pacifist constitution and enacting a full-fledged military, giving the country the clout she says it deserves. “I was born as Hideki Tojo’s granddaughter, and as a Japanese national. I cannot see Japan go on like this, with no confidence or pride,” Tojo told The Associated Press. “I do not think the war dead gave their lives for a country like this.” http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19173184

seeksfemslave -> RE: Tojo's granddaughter (6/11/2007 4:53:51 PM)
I think I am right in saying that Tojo was a bit of scapegoat. Have no "sauces" just my opinion Anybody know different ?

Level -> RE: Tojo's granddaughter (6/11/2007 5:02:30 PM)
Well, seeks, I wasn't there, but I wouldn't call him a scapegoat; he seems to have been the war-mongering bastard history has deemed him [:D]

agoodboy -> RE: Tojo's granddaughter (6/11/2007 5:14:10 PM)
Tojo wanted the war about as much as W wanted to go after Saddam Hussein. And when Yamamoto and the other admirals weren't so sure, Tojo and the army pulled an end run and forced the issue. Yamamoto had been a naval attache in Washington, had a first-hand look at the American economic potential and knew most of the U.S. admirals to the point of playing poker with them. In fact, much of their estimates of enemy intentions was at least partly based on Yamamoto's poker style.

Level -> RE: Tojo's granddaughter (6/11/2007 5:19:50 PM)
agoodboy, I had heard that about Yamamoto; he seems to be an interesting character, I need to read up on him.

Sinergy -> RE: Tojo's granddaughter (6/11/2007 6:01:17 PM)
What bothers me about the rise of Japanese militaristic nationalism is not what it would do to the US relationship with them. China and Japan are hereditary enemies going back a few hundred years, and China's historical approach to dealing with enemies on their borders is to either invade or start an arms race and build thousands of short range nukes on their border (e.g. the one with Russia). Japan rearms. China attacks. Our treaty requires us to fight. If I were in charge, I would point out that they are more than welcome to rebuild their military, but... a) If they failed to learn what it is like to be nuked, they could attack us to relearn the lesson. b) If somebody else attacks them, they are on their own dealing with the problem. Personally, I think the Tojo woman is a cretin. All that money she insists Japan use to rebuild their military could be used to a) Build things to sell to other people for more money. b) Invest in their infrastructure. c) Develop alternative energy sources in order to be no longer dependant on petroleum. d) Figure out a way to feed their people without using California to do it. She must have gone to the George W. Bush school of how to manage an economy. Sinergy edited because of too many Sinergys

Level -> RE: Tojo's granddaughter (6/11/2007 6:39:51 PM)
Sinergy, at least she doesn't seem too popular over there. I'd be surprised if she ever got elected to anything higher than "town goat herder", but I guess one never knows.

DomKen -> RE: Tojo's granddaughter (6/11/2007 10:12:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave I think I am right in saying that Tojo was a bit of scapegoat. Have no "sauces" just my opinion Anybody know different ? To the best of my knowledge the only real point of debate is whether Toju was the willing executor of the Emperor's orders or was really in charge himself. After reading a lot of translated first person accounts and studying the days leading up to the Japanese surrender I've come to the conclusion that Toju was in charge but with the Emperor's tacit support. Ultimately he deserved what he got and it is unfortunate that MacArthur had a monarch fetish or the Hirohito could have died beside him.

meatcleaver -> RE: Tojo's granddaughter (6/12/2007 3:11:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Ultimately he deserved what he got and it is unfortunate that MacArthur had a monarch fetish or the Hirohito could have died beside him. Fortunately the leadership of the USA in 1945 was far more enlightened than the leadership today. If you look at the post war years, while not every US decision was perfect, they did a pretty good job. Maybe they made compromises because thee were aware of the USSR emerging as a power to challenge the US and realises a Japan and Germany would be better on the side of the US. Whatever, the state of Japan and Germany today shows whatever the reasons the US took some good decisions. Revenge for revenge's sake would have just created countries that nursed revenge into the future. But maybe you are a Bushite and think that making every country in the world hate America is what is called a job well done.

popeye1250 -> RE: Tojo's granddaughter (6/12/2007 10:37:00 AM)
Good for her. It would be nice if China and Japan had a war and we got to sit on the sidelines and watch. We need to start getting out of these "Treaties" where we have to help foreign countries but they don't have to help us.

DomKen -> RE: Tojo's granddaughter (6/12/2007 10:39:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Ultimately he deserved what he got and it is unfortunate that MacArthur had a monarch fetish or the Hirohito could have died beside him. Fortunately the leadership of the USA in 1945 was far more enlightened than the leadership today. If you look at the post war years, while not every US decision was perfect, they did a pretty good job. Maybe they made compromises because thee were aware of the USSR emerging as a power to challenge the US and realises a Japan and Germany would be better on the side of the US. Whatever, the state of Japan and Germany today shows whatever the reasons the US took some good decisions. Revenge for revenge's sake would have just created countries that nursed revenge into the future. But maybe you are a Bushite and think that making every country in the world hate America is what is called a job well done. Wow, just wow. Let me educate you on some things. We executed all of the top leadership in Germany that was alive after the war. There is no doubt that had he not did it himself Hitler would have caught a bullet after an unpleasant stay at Nuremberg. At Nuremberg 209 Nazis stood in the dock and the overwhelming majority we found guilty of at least one crime. However in Tokyo MacArthur guaranteed the Japanese leadership that Hirohito and his family would not even be indicted before the war crimes tribunal even sat to begin considering indictments. Furthermore MacArthur allowed the the showa government to coach witnesses to avoid implicating members of the imperial families as well as supporting the war crimes suspects themselves in coordinating their testimony to avoid implicating any imperial family member. see: John Dower, Embracing defeat, 1999 Herbert Bix, Hirohito and the making of modern Japan, 2000 Hirohito was a war criminal. He knew what his government was doing and he made no effort to stop it. Bush deserves to stand in the dock in the Hague for his crimes and Hirohito should have faced the Tokyo Tribunal.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Tojo's granddaughter (6/12/2007 12:29:47 PM)
If the Japanese people rose up in revolt over our destruction of the monarchy and we lost a few hundred thousand troops in the process, would you still be willing to say the same thing? It is quite easy to take the noble high ground when there is no cost. I think McArthur was a self important asshole but he pulled off a rather brilliant recovery for Japan and deserves credit for that if for little else.

DomKen -> RE: Tojo's granddaughter (6/12/2007 1:23:09 PM)
I personally do not believe one inch of Japanese soil is worth a single American life. However if the Japanese refused to surreder peacefully after Hirohito's execution I would have consider the rape of Nanking, The Bataan death march, Unit 731 etc. etc. seemingly ad infinitum and fire bombed the population centers out of existence. I will explain that my family has been a military family for better than a hundred years. One of my mother's brothers is aboard the Arizona. A paternal great uncle died after the surrender of Bataan. Two maternal uncles did not return from the PTO. For me and mine the Pacific war and the Japanese atrocities aren't dry history but empty chairs at the dinner table and the lonely feeling of looking at the calm waters of a harbour as the only way to visit the grave of a family member. To deny justice to all those who suffered at his hands by not even allowing him to face trial is unacceptable to me. I imagine most view it as a good thing that MacArthur was thought so highly of a monarch.

Sinergy -> RE: Tojo's granddaughter (6/12/2007 6:00:12 PM)
The problem, DomKen, is that starting at about the 16th century with the rise of the Tokugawa Shogunate, the emperor of Japan became little more than a titular figurehead; a living god who had no temporal power or control over Japan. In a sense, putting Hirohito on trial for World War 2 would have been logically similar to executing Prince Charles for Britain joining the Coalition Of The Willing to invade Iraq. Apart from the fact that the Japanese would have gone apeshit if we did kill him, he was not really consulted about the Japanese decision to try to conquer the western pacific. Sinergy

SimplyMichael -> RE: Tojo's granddaughter (6/12/2007 6:58:29 PM)
Ken, I take it then that you support Bin Laudin in attacking America since we have been responsible for the deaths of so many Muslims and that you feel Bush should be tried for war crimes.

DomKen -> RE: Tojo's granddaughter (6/12/2007 7:22:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Ken, I take it then that you support Bin Laudin in attacking America since we have been responsible for the deaths of so many Muslims and that you feel Bush should be tried for war crimes. Excuse me? Did americans perform medical experiment on Saudi prisoners? Did americans kill and rape most of the inhabitants of a major Saudi city in retaliation for the city resisting conquest? Did americans take Saudi prisoners and then march them to death just because we could? Did americans attack Saudi Arabia without warning? IOW what bullshit are trying to peddle. It is simply impossible to draw any kind of equivalence between japanese actions in WWII and US actions in the mid east. Bush is a war criminal and Bin Laden is a terrorist. What any of that has to do with Hirohito and the coprosperity sphere is completely beyond me.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Tojo's granddaughter (6/12/2007 7:27:04 PM)
So what? What's she going to get--3% of the vote? There are always going to be chauvinists in politics, but I kinda like it when they get 3% of the vote, not 100%. quote: ORIGINAL: Level Yuko, 68, will fight her own battle in July, when she competes as an independent in elections for parliament’s upper house. An ultra-nationalist, her mission is to restore Japan’s honor by scrapping its pacifist constitution and enacting a full-fledged military, giving the country the clout she says it deserves.

DomKen -> RE: Tojo's granddaughter (6/12/2007 7:39:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy The problem, DomKen, is that starting at about the 16th century with the rise of the Tokugawa Shogunate, the emperor of Japan became little more than a titular figurehead; a living god who had no temporal power or control over Japan. In a sense, putting Hirohito on trial for World War 2 would have been logically similar to executing Prince Charles for Britain joining the Coalition Of The Willing to invade Iraq. Apart from the fact that the Japanese would have gone apeshit if we did kill him, he was not really consulted about the Japanese decision to try to conquer the western pacific. Sinergy The good old wrong argument that Hirohito was a figurehead only. Read the two books I sourced up thread. Do some research on who met with who when in the Japanese high command. You'll find strong support that Hirohito was not involved in day to day affairs of state but was fully aware and supportive of Japanese strategy. He was certainly aware of such things as the rape of Nanking but chose to take no action. Finally there is the telling events that preceded the surrender. Hirohito recorded a surrender announcement to be broadcast to hois subjects. Hawkish elements of the government attempted a coup d'etat by capturing the palace and attempting to seize the royal family and the surrender recording. The coup was put down by loyal troops at Hirohito's command. Not at the PM's command but at Hirohito's. I refer you to his biographical wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirohito for a plethora of references presenting strong evidence that Hirohito was far from a helpless figurehead.

Sinergy -> RE: Tojo's granddaughter (6/12/2007 7:52:01 PM)
Thank you for the link, DomKen. It sounds like the figurehead speech was given so the US hawks didnt insist he be taken out and killed. Which would have resulted in the Japanese going apeshit. Sinergy

DomKen -> RE: Tojo's granddaughter (6/12/2007 8:38:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy Thank you for the link, DomKen. It sounds like the figurehead speech was given so the US hawks didnt insist he be taken out and killed. Which would have resulted in the Japanese going apeshit. Sinergy One thing to add and then something else. President Truman wanted Hirohito tried but couldn't get MacArthur to budge and was apparently unwilling to replace him just over this one issue. I want to apologize to those I have disagreed with on this thread. The subject veered onto subjects very close to home for me and I was rude in my responses.

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