Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid



Message


SugarMyChurro -> Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (6/11/2007 1:46:04 AM)

I remember seeing a thread here recently about restaurant servers, tips, courtesy, etc.

As it turns out, a friend of a friend is a server in a restaurant. The restaurant has a policy that if the patron skips out on the bill that the server must cover 50% of the bill. This seems very odd to me even though I have come up with some plausible reasons for the policy to exist.

My questions are these:
Is such a policy legal?
Could the employee sue the restaurant for enforcing this kind of policy?

My point would be that the server is an innocent bystander in this scenario. The business belongs to the restaurant and its investors. If a patron skips out on paying the bill, the loss is to the restaurant. In what way is the server directly responsible for the loss? If a person runs out of a bookstore without paying for an item, the bookstore doesn't go the cashier and ask them to assume the cost of the loss, right? The cashier would be an innocent bystander also. This restaurant policy seems predicated on some really flimsy logic to me.

The server cannot be expected to watch that a table pays its bills any more than the a shift manager or bus-person might. Maybe the server is performing side work or delivering food or drinks to another table. There must be a million reasons why servers cannot be expected to enforce bill payment.

Replies would be most welcome - especially those with legal substance in them.





LadyEllen -> RE: Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (6/11/2007 2:06:17 AM)

Not sure how relevant this will be, but I'd guess that English contract law is likely very alike to US.

The contract in this instance exists between the diner and the restaurant. The restaurant provides food, the diner provides money payment as consideration from both sides. Failure to provide consideration on either side comprises a breach by the contracting party that has not delivered consideration, and liability for that breach is not transferable to any other party.

The only way I can see the scenario working, is if the server of the food is acting as an independent agent within the diner. Whether he/she is an independent agent or an employee can become complicated, but if the server is required to work when, where and how the restaurant orders, and is paid a set sum per hour or per other time period, then generally they will be an employee and not liable for losses by the restaurant. If the server is permitted to work whenever, however and wherever he/she will and earns on a transactional basis (per person served or by percentage of the value of food served etc) then he/she may be an agent, alike to a middle man. I would suggest though, that to hold a server as an agent would be very difficult should the situation be reversed - say for instance, the restaurant failed to provide food, would the server be responsible to fulfil the contract? I also dont see any defence for an agent status should the server be earning mainly on the basis of tips from those whom he/she serves - tips are consideration for a verbal contract by which the server provides good service in consideration and this contract exists between the diner and the server.

My view then, is that it is more than likely illegal in civil law for the restaurant to act in this way, (and may even be illegal in criminal law), and that the server ought to be able to recover any withhold wages or monies otherwise claimed by the restaurant. It is for the diner who left without paying to settle his/her bill and it is to him/her that the restaurant must turn to recover what is owed.

E




UtopianRanger -> RE: Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (6/11/2007 2:40:04 AM)


quote:

Is such a policy legal?



Nah brother....not even remotely legal. It's the minor equivalent of an employer deducting the face value and associated fees of a bad check accepted {by the employee} from the employee's earnings  - It's the cost of doing business and totally illegal.


quote:

Could the employee sue the restaurant for enforcing this kind of policy?



In a case such as you've mentioned: The employee would file a grievance and seek legal remedy through that particular state's division of Labor standards and enforcement.



- R






cyberdude611 -> RE: Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (6/11/2007 2:48:55 AM)

It depends...

If the employee signed an agreement at hiring saying they will cover the losses if a customer skips out...then yes it is legal. But if they did not sign that contract at hiring...then it is illegal to force that.

As for cash drawers....if the cash drawer is short, they usually can make the employee pay that back since that is within the employee's control and responsibility.




SugarMyChurro -> RE: Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (6/11/2007 2:58:39 AM)

cyberdude611:

I asked a few more questions about this setup and one new fact to add is that the server does act sort of like a cashier, placing the orders, serving food and drinks, running credit cards, but also accepting money from patrons that is not collected until the end of the shift.

But I still think that this is the equivalent of making an innocent bystander pay a loss that the restaurant itself should assume. The server is just a go-between, not a responsible party.




cyberdude611 -> RE: Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (6/11/2007 3:20:26 AM)

It also varies a lot by state.
But in most states I believe it is recognized that the server's money is their personal property. And the employer cannot simply demand the handover of that property. The employer would have to file a lawsuit and go to court. Unless it is agreed to at hiring and the policy applies to all employees.

In retail, a store almost always writes off the loss from a shoplifter unless the clerk was directly responsible. Or sometimes if the theft is large enough, the business may have insurance that will pay for it. In restraunts however, they will frequently try to recover that loss in one way or another even if it isn't legal. Most people don't know the law and most businesses don't even know the law.




UtopianRanger -> RE: Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (6/11/2007 3:54:53 AM)

quote:


As for cash drawers....if the cash drawer is short, they usually can make the employee pay that back since that is within the employee's control and responsibility.


How can you get something this simple so-ass wrong? You can't deduct any perceived monetary losses from an employee's earnings or force them to pay cash shortages back, legally.

You can terminate the employee and even file a criminal complaint if you think the employee pilfered funds, but there's no way in hell you can arbitrarily deduct any operational costs or said losses from that employee’s earnings.

Here are excerpts from a Q&A - California labor code sections 221 and 224


Q.If I break or damage company property or lose company money while performing my job, can my employer deduct the cost/loss from my wages?

 A.No, your employer cannot legally make such a deduction from your wages if, by reason of mistake or accident a cash shortage, breakage, or loss of company property/equipment occurs. The California courts have held that losses occurring without any fault on the part of the employee or that are merely the result of simple negligence are inevitable in almost any business operation and thus, the employer must bear such losses as a cost of doing business. For example, if you accidentally drop a tray of dishes, take a bad check, or have a customer walkout without paying a check, your employer cannot deduct the loss from your paycheck. There is an exception to the foregoing contained in the Industrial Welfare Commission Wage Orders that purports to provide the employer the right to deduct from an employee’s wages for any cash shortage, breakage or loss of equipment if the employer can show that the shortage, breakage or loss is caused by a dishonest or willful act, or by the employee’s gross negligence. What this means is that a deduction may be legal if the employer proves that the loss resulted from the employee’s dishonesty, willfulness, or grossly negligent act. Under this regulation, a simple accusation does not give the employer the right to make the deduction. The DLSE has cautioned that use of this deduction contained in the IWC regulations may, in fact, not comply with the provisions of the California Labor Code and various California Court decisions. Furthermore, DLSE does not automatically assume that an employee was dishonest, acted willfully or was grossly negligent when an employer asserts such as a justification for making a deduction from an employee’s wages to cover a shortage, breakage, or loss to property or equipment. Labor Code Section 224 clearly prohibits any deduction from an employee’s wages which is not either authorized by the employee in writing or permitted by law, and any employer who resorts to self-help does so at its own risk as an objective test is applied to determine whether the loss was due to dishonesty, willfulness, or a grossly negligent act. If your employer makes such a deduction and it is later determined that you were not guilty of a dishonest or willful act, or grossly negligent, you would be entitled to recover the amount of the wages withheld. Additionally, if you no longer work for the employer who made the deduction and it’s decided that the deduction was wrongful, you may also be able to recover the waiting time penalty pursuant to Labor Code Section 203.

3.Q.What, if anything, can my employer do if I experience shortages in my cash drawer?

 A.Your employer may subject you to disciplinary action, up to and including termination of employment. Additionally, your employer can bring an action in court to try to recover any damages and/or losses it has suffered.

http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_Deductions.htm





- R





MsSonnetMarwood -> RE: Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (6/11/2007 4:56:09 AM)

The server shouldn't pay the bill - it's on the restaurant to cover the costs.  (Of course, the server doesn't get a tip either, which at $2.38 an hour, can really hurt as well)    Check your local laws - restaurants can make up rules for their staff that aren't legal either because management don't know any better, or because management does but hopes the employees don't know better.

In 10+ years, none of the restaurants I've worked in have had a policy that the server pays on a walk.   I've seen servers fired over it though.  Something to think of if you're of a "dine and dash" mentality.




SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (6/11/2007 6:04:28 AM)

all i know is that a bar i go to for live bands makes the waitresses pay 100% of a bill that is skipped out on.  i have to assume this is told before employment, and all the waitresses know it and act as if it is the norm.  they also can chase down and threaten very big  dudes who attempt to walk out without paying, and are not afraid to do just that. 

as for the till being short-years ago i worked in a small store.  one night the drawer came up $40 short and nothing was mentioned to me or the other gal working there.  when i got my check that friday, it had $20 deducted out of it.  after the manager explained to me what happened, i told her i did not steal and wanted my $20 back immediately.

she refused, so i called a local small town lawyer.  he called her, and i got my $20 back, at the same time that she fired me.  she also told me at that time i was banned from her store.  of course i was 18 and was going to rule the world back then, so i called my lawyer friend again and was informed she could not ban me from that store for something like that.  he also called her to inform her she had broken the law twice now.

i got a new job the same day, right down the street, and i must say i enjoyed going in that store for my coffee every morning, and seeing her face as she rang it up for me.

i smiled even more when she went out of business a few months later.

but i digress from the original topic......




Alumbrado -> RE: Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (6/11/2007 6:25:02 AM)

quote:

How can you get something this simple so-ass wrong? You can't deduct any perceived monetary losses from an employee's earnings or force them to pay cash shortages back, legally.

You can terminate the employee and even file a criminal complaint if you think the employee pilfered funds, but there's no way in hell you can arbitrarily deduct any operational costs or said losses from that employee’s earnings.


In a perfect world that might be enforceable...

In the real world of job scared lower wage workers, it is a fairly safe bet for employers to ignore the laws, and adopt a defacto policy of having the employees cover the company's losses... just like employers who coerce workers into working off the clock, do without safety gear, buy their own uniforms, etc.

The small number of workers who do sucessfully fight these policies are more than offset by the majority who suffer in silence.




philosophy -> RE: Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (6/11/2007 10:29:27 AM)

<fast reply>

...even if the store/restaraunt makes employees sign a weird contract that has a clause making them pay skipped bills, wouldn't it be an illegal contract and not enforceable?




Alumbrado -> RE: Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (6/11/2007 11:17:43 AM)

In general, a person  can sometimes sign away their rights in exchange for something they want.

Agreeing to take an exempt management position is essentially agreeing to work overtime without pay, and is perfectly legal.
Coercing a non-exempt employee into working unpaid overtime by calling it 'training', or pressuring them with consequences related to promotions or evaluations is illegal, but hard to get justice for.




Sinergy -> RE: Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (6/11/2007 12:31:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

<fast reply>

...even if the store/restaraunt makes employees sign a weird contract that has a clause making them pay skipped bills, wouldn't it be an illegal contract and not enforceable?


Most likely.

What would happen is the company would be taken to small claims and the judge would tell them to find their checkbook and pay the employee back.

Sinergy




Sinergy -> RE: Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (6/11/2007 12:33:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

all i know is that a bar i go to for live bands makes the waitresses pay 100% of a bill that is skipped out on.  i have to assume this is told before employment, and all the waitresses know it and act as if it is the norm.  they also can chase down and threaten very big  dudes who attempt to walk out without paying, and are not afraid to do just that. 

as for the till being short-years ago i worked in a small store.  one night the drawer came up $40 short and nothing was mentioned to me or the other gal working there.  when i got my check that friday, it had $20 deducted out of it.  after the manager explained to me what happened, i told her i did not steal and wanted my $20 back immediately.

she refused, so i called a local small town lawyer.  he called her, and i got my $20 back, at the same time that she fired me.  she also told me at that time i was banned from her store.  of course i was 18 and was going to rule the world back then, so i called my lawyer friend again and was informed she could not ban me from that store for something like that.  he also called her to inform her she had broken the law twice now.

i got a new job the same day, right down the street, and i must say i enjoyed going in that store for my coffee every morning, and seeing her face as she rang it up for me.

i smiled even more when she went out of business a few months later.

but i digress from the original topic......


Since it was an illegal termination, you could probably sue the employer for your wages until you found another job.

Not to mention punitive damages.

Never sign anything on termination day.  Simply smile and indicate that you need to have your lawyer review the document before signing.

Sinergy




LafayetteLady -> RE: Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (6/11/2007 1:54:26 PM)

As previously mentioned, the laws will vary from state to state, but for the most part, it is illegal for a restaurant to require a server to pay for a check that was "skipped out on".  An "employment" contract as was mentioned would not likely be enforceable any more than a slave contract.  I once looked at an apartment where the landlord stated how he had right in the lease that tenants were not permitted to open the windows unless the temperature was above 60 because he paid for the heat.  He could certainly put it in the lease, and even attempt to evict for the policy being broken, but as it violates the tenant's rights, he would not likely win.  Likewise with the restaurant.  You can't have an employee consent to illegal activity.  The department of labor has very specific guidelines on exempt and non exempt employees as well.

Certainly, when any of these situations arise, an employee is entitled, under the law to sue their employer.  "Whistle blower" laws also are supposed to protect the employee from firing.  That really isn't the issue.  The problem is more complex than that.  Frequently, servers can be paid "off the books" in which case, they open themselves up to IRS audits with a lawsuit.  Secondly, the need for the job usually supercedes the ability to sue the employer.  Sure, you can sue for lost wages, in my state, servers are paid $2.13 an hour plus tips.  While you could prove through a pay stub the "average" amount you might be making in tips which is listed on your paycheck, most servers typically claim significantly less than their actual tips.  The cost and hassle of a lawsuit against the employer is not usually worth the outcome.  Think about it....if you are claiming an income of $25K per year for waiting tables, and you sue your employer for something like this and look for lost wages, you are only entitled to lost wages for the time you were unemployed.  Most people earning that kind of money can't afford to be out of work for very long and so they would receive a minimal amount.  As for punitive damages, it is unlikely that any substantial award for these things would be granted by the courts.

So in the end, the employee has to determine for themselves what they will tolerate and not tolerate.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (6/11/2007 2:41:58 PM)

California is an "at will" state regarding termination. If I don't like the color socks you wear on a particular day you can be terminated. That is the law, end of story.

Do a quick internet search regarding California "Wrongful Termination" and this is what you'll find:
  • Discrimination based on age, national origin, sex, pregnancy, religion, sexual orientation or marital status. Or termination for complaining about these issues.
  • Discrimination based on disability, or retaliation for seeking a reasonable accommodation for a disability
  • Discrimination or retaliation for taking a medical leave or a leave to care for a sick parent or child
  • Discrimination or retaliation for making complaints about wage violations, such as nonpayment of minimum wage or overtime compensation
  • Discrimination or retaliation for a complaint regarding workplace safety
  • Discrimination or retaliation for having complained to an employer or a government agency about the employer's illegal practices.

Even if an employee has not been terminated, they may have a claim against their employer if their employer has subjected them to unlawful harassment or discrimination.  Harassment based on race, national origin, sex, pregnancy, disability, age, religion, sexual orientation or marital status may be illegal. Note the "may be" part of that last sentence. It "may not be" just as well.

You can sue anyone for anything at anytime. Playing the lawsuit lottery is a favorite pastime for many. However regarding employment in California you don't have much outside what is listed.

As others have pointed out, as long as your gross salary divided by hours works exceed minimum wage you have no standing. There are some restaurants that charge their clients 25% of the bill for service workers used at banquets but only pay minimum hourly wage. Others set rules making the serves responsible for the clients checks. You freedom of choice is to work under those conditions or don't.

If an employer was stupid enough to fire a good worker or lose a good worker because a customer stiffed them on a bill, his business won't last long anyway. Like anything, circumstances come into play, frequency of occurrence, and many other factors go into the decision. As an employee, you have to ask yourself is this job worth it? Do you pay the check to keep the job, at least until you find another?




SugarMyChurro -> RE: Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (6/11/2007 3:12:49 PM)

I think the part that got me was that if the patron skipped out on the bill, they most likely didn't leave a tip either - the true source of the server's earnings. So the restaurant trying to get the money for the bill, or even just a percentage of that total, from the server adds true injury to an existing insult.

Somebody's just not thinking this thing through enough.





Mercnbeth -> RE: Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (6/11/2007 3:39:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
I think the part that got me was that if the patron skipped out on the bill, they most likely didn't leave a tip either - the true source of the server's earnings. So the restaurant trying to get the money for the bill, or even just a percentage of that total, from the server adds true injury to an existing insult.


Yeah - it sucks. Even getting bad service I never leave less than 15%. Waiter/waitresses have a tough gig and its not as easy as many believe. Most of the time I'll tip but let the manager know if the service was lacking. Like anyone else - servers can have a bad days, as can the kitchen. However knowing that restaurants don't pay minimum wage to the servers and the government gets a generated W-2 assuming a tip percentage; I can't justify giving less than 15% under the worse conditions.

Every place is different but your friend should try to let the manager know. One time at a decent place we go to often after really bad service, when one person at the table was getting desert while the other got his appetizer, I complained  and the manager comped my bill and apologized, saying that I was the server's first table ever. I took the money he gave me back from the check and handed it to the server and wished her luck.

Maybe your friend can talk to the manager and/or other servers to eliminate the ability for someone to skip out like that. There are people who are just slime! I'm sure those that skipped laughed and thought they just 'stuck' the place. If more realized that the practice of making servers accountable is common maybe they wouldn't do it. Then again - some people are slime.




Sinergy -> RE: Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (6/11/2007 5:52:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

You can sue anyone for anything at anytime. Playing the lawsuit lottery is a favorite pastime for many. However regarding employment in California you don't have much outside what is listed.



I have better things to do in my life than spend it in court paying somebody to argue for me about money.

I set up my divorce that way; she can never come after me again for anything, and I never have to see her in court for anything.  It was expensive to do that, but infinitely worthwhile use of my money.

I decided not to file a workmen's compensation suit against a former employer.  Probably a poor choice on my part as the payout would have been significant, but as I said, I have better things to do than spend my life in court.

Just me, probably wrong, etc.

Sinergy




OO8OO88O8 -> RE: Employment Question: Server Pays Percentage of Bill? (6/11/2007 8:35:35 PM)

I do work as a waiter in a restaurant. I was held responsible for the one table that ever dashed on the check. I was furious, but I needed the job then and still need my job. I am about to leave them soon though. :)




Page: [1] 2   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.03125