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Don't ask, don't tell - 6/10/2007 8:47:56 AM   
Level


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Status: offline 		Should the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy be done away with? Should it ever have been made law to begin with?

WASHINGTON, June 7 — The presidential candidates are dividing starkly along party lines on one of the signature fights of the 1990s: whether the 14-year-old policy of “don’t ask, don’t tell” should be repealed and gay men and lesbians allowed to serve openly in the military.

In back-to-back debates in New Hampshire this week, every Democratic candidate raised his or her hand in support of repealing that policy, while not a single Republican embraced the idea. Democrats argued with striking unanimity that it was time to end the uneasy compromise that President Bill Clinton reached in 1993, after his attempt to lift the ban on gay men and lesbians in the military provoked one of the most wrenching fights of his young administration.

Republicans countered that the policy should not be changed, certainly not in time of war.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/08/us/politics/08gays.html?ex=1338955200&en=f7654033032244de&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

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RE: Don't ask, don't tell - 6/10/2007 8:50:16 AM   
Lordandmaster


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RE: Don't ask, don't tell - 6/10/2007 8:51:38 AM   
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Status: offline 		Lam, I'm going to mark that down as a "yes".

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RE: Don't ask, don't tell - 6/10/2007 8:56:44 AM   
OrangeJulius


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Status: offline 		Gay people can kill just the same as straight people, I don't see what the big problem is. As long as it's not going to create big schisms within the ranks, I don't think there's any good reason why they shouldn't repeal the law.

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RE: Don't ask, don't tell - 6/10/2007 9:07:43 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Status: offline 		I loved Jon Stewart's joke on this (paraphrased):

The Republican candidates are suggesting we should doeverything possible to stop terrorists and win the war....except allowing homosexuals to do it.

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RE: Don't ask, don't tell - 6/10/2007 9:26:53 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrangeJulius

Gay people can kill just the same as straight people, I don't see what the big problem is. As long as it's not going to create big schisms within the ranks, I don't think there's any good reason why they shouldn't repeal the law.


That's one of the main arguments some have against repealing it, that it would create schism.
 
Of course, some honestly think that, while some use it as a smokescreen. Many said women shouldn't serve, for the same reason.

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RE: Don't ask, don't tell - 6/10/2007 10:46:07 AM   
Guilty1974


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

That's one of the main arguments some have against repealing it, that it would create schism.



The only reason why it would cause a schism, is because apparantly many people in the US are taught to dislike, hate or be scared of homosexuals. Banning gays from the army addresses the symptom, but doesn't solve the problem. It's a silly law.

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RE: Don't ask, don't tell - 6/10/2007 11:59:09 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

That's one of the main arguments some have against repealing it, that it would create schism.



The only reason why it would cause a schism, is because apparantly many people in the US are taught to dislike, hate or be scared of homosexuals. Banning gays from the army addresses the symptom, but doesn't solve the problem. It's a silly law.



I have issues with the idea of the schism being a symptom.  It does nothing to end intolerance towards one's fellow citizens except kowtow to their bigotry.

Apparently, the Republican attitude is that bigoted assholes should have the right to be eternally exiled to kill the locals in the Middle East for corporate profits, leaving all the gay people home.

Perhaps they want to make sure the people left back in the states wont try to sleep with their partners.

Sinergy



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RE: Don't ask, don't tell - 6/10/2007 1:06:24 PM   
farglebargle


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Status: offline 		If Appeasement doesn't work, why does the CiC appease the bigots who are still remaining in the ranks by not drumming THEM out?



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RE: Don't ask, don't tell - 6/10/2007 1:35:55 PM   
AquaticSub


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Status: offline 		"Don't ask, don't tell" is a mockery of the very rule. If you want to run the military like that then heterosexual couples should not be allowed to discuss their partners or have pictures of their families on their desks.

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RE: Don't ask, don't tell - 6/10/2007 1:41:41 PM   
KenDckey


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Status: offline 		ok   First   I am a Republican.   Proud of it.   And I don't care whether they serve or not.   Doesn't bother me one way or the other.  

Second, I am also retired from the Army.

As to the military dynamics I have an opinion. 

1.  It is a religious thing and lots of people seem to get religion about the time soneone starts shooting at them.

2.   Tons of soldiers fratonize with the locals.   The prevelance of STDs is much greater than in the US.  Especially in some of the 3d world countries.

3.  Fear. 

   a.  The fear that someone will have a greater risk of catchign aids and other stds if they are not straight.

   b.  The probability of having to stick your bear hand our mouth on someone to render first aid, give mouth to mouth, etc and catching something that some other soldier caught is increased over the general population.


I am not saying that the arguments are always totally rational, but then how long did it take the military to decide that you shouldn't be disciplened for getting the clap.   Until the late 1960' or early 70s. 

It took a national cultural change to desegrate the military.   It took a national cultural change to get the military to not discipline for getting an STD.  It takes a national cultural change to get just about anything done in the military on some of these changes.  To get the change, you may just have to wait until more people die off of old age.

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RE: Don't ask, don't tell - 6/10/2007 2:16:03 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
It took a national cultural change to desegrate the military.   It took a national cultural change to get the military to not discipline for getting an STD.  It takes a national cultural change to get just about anything done in the military on some of these changes.  To get the change, you may just have to wait until more people die off of old age.

Truman didn't wait till the national culture changed to desegregate the military. He issued executive order 9981 on 7/26/1948. Before "I had a dream",  before Brown v Board of Education, before Rosa Parks, before all of the modern civil rights movement except Jackie Robinson integrating baseball.

Another executive order from a POTUS with the balls to can any general or admiral that doesn't pop to and salute when he signs the order is all that is needed.

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RE: Don't ask, don't tell - 6/10/2007 2:47:38 PM   
losttreasure


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Every day I'm given a thoughtful reminder of why I'm not a fucking Republican.


Well... fucking Republicans are generally nicer than non-fucking Republicans.  A bit less stoic, I think.


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RE: Don't ask, don't tell - 6/10/2007 5:48:08 PM   
Joseff


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Status: offline 		The ban on gays in the military was around long before politics ever got involved. The reason for the ban is it was the simplest way to avoid the inevitable morale problems that arise when gays and non gays mix. In less enlightened times, gays and suspected gays were alienated , beaten, and sometimes even murdered in military organizations. It truly does not reflect on the abilities or patriotism of gays.
Joseff

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RE: Don't ask, don't tell - 6/11/2007 6:44:11 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

Should the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy be done away with? Should it ever have been made law to begin with?


A shameful policy, and I among others,  will never buy any of the lame excuses as to why it 'had' to be implemented.

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RE: Don't ask, don't tell - 6/11/2007 9:10:18 AM   
LightHeartedMaam


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Status: offline 		I'm not really sure what "serving openly" means.I've always assumed that don't ask-don't tell was meant for the recruiters.  As in  "it's none of your damn business who or how I fuck" - so,don't ask. Am I wrong here?

If they repeal it and we start asking~ will the straight soldiers be issued butt plugs as added  protection? :)

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RE: Don't ask, don't tell - 6/11/2007 9:19:35 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseff

...... The reason for the ban is it was the simplest way to avoid the inevitable morale problems that arise when gays and non gays mix. .......


...nothing inevitable about it....unless people are somehow taught to be bigotted.

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RE: Don't ask, don't tell - 6/11/2007 9:22:50 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseff

The ban on gays in the military was around long before politics ever got involved. The reason for the ban is it was the simplest way to avoid the inevitable morale problems that arise when gays and non gays mix. In less enlightened times, gays and suspected gays were alienated , beaten, and sometimes even murdered in military organizations. It truly does not reflect on the abilities or patriotism of gays.
Joseff



Hang a few Gay Bashers, and the problem's fixed.

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RE: Don't ask, don't tell - 6/11/2007 9:27:58 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

I've always assumed that don't ask-don't tell was meant for the recruiters.  As in  "it's none of your damn business who or how I fuck" - so,don't ask. Am I wrong here?


Col. Camermeyer wasn't outed by a recruiter...she was able to serve long and honorably until after DADT became the signal for a pogrom among active duty troops.

Whatever it was meant to be, in practice it was a program that got gays to 'out themselves', though a variety of techniques, including off duty covert surveillance, guilt by association, anonymous snitching, profiling, etc.

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RE: Don't ask, don't tell - 6/11/2007 9:50:33 AM   
MarkMinette


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Status: offline 		 I've served with many U.S. troops when I was in the Canadian military. "Don't ask, don't tell", is suprising alive and well in the U.S. forces. I was amazed at how many actually actually "gay bash (verbally, at least)", and have hard line views of a negative nature regarding the matter. Being the most technologically advanced military in the world, they still have a stone-age opinion on the gay lifestyle. In the Canadian military, we consider it discrimination, and will take corrective disciplinary action against anyone who shows any form of bias against gender, race, sexual orientation, religion, etc. For us, this is just not something "on the books", but I've seen careers ended over the issue, as we take human equality seriously. Each soldier MUST have "SHARP (Sexual Harassment and Racism Prevention)" training before or during basic training.

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