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Niether Due Process nor Equal Protection, this shit's g... - 6/4/2007 12:16:15 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/04/world/americas/04cnd-gitmo.html?ex=1338696000&en=a84490bbd2279a2b&ei=5124&partner=digg&exprod=digg

quote:

Without the additional finding that Mr. Khadr was an unlawful combatant, the judge said, the military commission lacked the jurisdiction to hear the case. The military judge acted on his own, not in response to a request from the defense.

So, when you're just snatched off the street, and tossed into prison for the rest of your life, WHO DOES HAVE JURISDICTION?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

Post #: 1

RE: Niether Due Process nor Equal Protection, this shit... - 6/4/2007 12:34:23 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Fargle, I started to read your post until I saw that you used *The New York Times* as a referance and stopped.
They recently published a "poll" that showed that "most Americans are in favor of Bush's Amnesty Bill" when all the polls decidedly show that this is not the case!
Now The New York Times is on Bush's side???
Can you find another referance other than the NYT?
When I go to the grocery store it's kept right next to the "Globe" and the "National Enquirer".
"The New York Times, enquiring minds want to know!"

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 6/4/2007 12:35:09 PM >

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 2

RE: Niether Due Process nor Equal Protection, this shit... - 6/4/2007 12:40:41 PM

selfbnd411

Posts: 598
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
They recently published a "poll" that showed that "most Americans are in favor of Bush's Amnesty Bill" when all the polls decidedly show that this is not the case!

Not to thread-jack, but I'd like to see some proof of this. I already cited the NYT poll showing that 62% of Americans favor the bill. The Washington Post poll says that 52% of Americans favor it as well.

I think you need to stop listening to that goofy radio show you cite so often and start reading some newspapers!

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2007/06/04/momentum_building_for_us_immigration_overhaul/

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 3

RE: Niether Due Process nor Equal Protection, this shit... - 6/4/2007 12:44:45 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/04/world/americas/04cnd-gitmo.html?ex=1338696000&en=a84490bbd2279a2b&ei=5124&partner=digg&exprod=digg

quote:

Without the additional finding that Mr. Khadr was an unlawful combatant, the judge said, the military commission lacked the jurisdiction to hear the case. The military judge acted on his own, not in response to a request from the defense.

So, when you're just snatched off the street, and tossed into prison for the rest of your life, WHO DOES HAVE JURISDICTION?

Farglebargle:
You will note that the judge dismissed the case without prejudice. This means that the kid can be kept in custody till his captors resubmit the case with the appropriate designation of his status. That is to say the semantic fraud that can call someone an illegal enemy combatant.
thompson

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 4

RE: Niether Due Process nor Equal Protection, this shit... - 6/4/2007 12:45:34 PM

cyberdude611

Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

So, when you're just snatched off the street, and tossed into prison for the rest of your life, WHO DOES HAVE JURISDICTION?

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/04/world/americas/04cnd-gitmo.html?ex=1338696000&en=a84490bbd2279a2b&ei=5124&partner=digg&exprod=digg

quote:

Without the additional finding that Mr. Khadr was an unlawful combatant, the judge said, the military commission lacked the jurisdiction to hear the case. The military judge acted on his own, not in response to a request from the defense.

So, when you're just snatched off the street, and tossed into prison for the rest of your life, WHO DOES HAVE JURISDICTION?

Within the borders of the US, the civilian courts have jurisdiction. However we are talking about non-citizens outside the border, and the constitution does not grant protections to foreign nationals. Therefore the military courts do have jurisdiction. The only authority above that is the US Supreme Court which is considered in the constitution the highest court in the land.

Keep in mind though that SCOTUS does not usually get involved in situtions like this. The only times they did was during WW2 concerning the executions of captured Nazi spies, which the court allowed. But during that time there was an official declaration of war which changes the legal landscape a bit. We don't have a declaration in this case.

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 6/4/2007 12:48:18 PM >

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 5

RE: Niether Due Process nor Equal Protection, this shit... - 6/4/2007 12:53:34 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Fargle, I started to read your post until I saw that you used *The New York Times* as a referance and stopped.
They recently published a "poll" that showed that "most Americans are in favor of Bush's Amnesty Bill" when all the polls decidedly show that this is not the case!
Now The New York Times is on Bush's side???
Can you find another referance other than the NYT?
When I go to the grocery store it's kept right next to the "Globe" and the "National Enquirer".
"The New York Times, enquiring minds want to know!"

popeye:
Are you really denying that this happened? I just heard Rush comment on it. Does this mean that Rush is the New York Time's bitch? Or is this just another one of your knee jerk reactions to that which you disagree?
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 6/4/2007 12:56:38 PM >

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 6

RE: Niether Due Process nor Equal Protection, this shit... - 6/4/2007 12:58:59 PM

cyberdude611

Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
They recently published a "poll" that showed that "most Americans are in favor of Bush's Amnesty Bill" when all the polls decidedly show that this is not the case!

Not to thread-jack, but I'd like to see some proof of this. I already cited the NYT poll showing that 62% of Americans favor the bill. The Washington Post poll says that 52% of Americans favor it as well.

I think you need to stop listening to that goofy radio show you cite so often and start reading some newspapers!

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2007/06/04/momentum_building_for_us_immigration_overhaul/

I think this has more to do with the public being uninformed. The price tag for this bill is finally starting to be calculated and most estimates are centering around $2.5 trillion dollars over the next decade. That equates, according the Herritage Foundation, as giving an illegal alien a free Ford Mustang every year for the next 10 years.

So my question is, why are taxpayers being punished for people that broke the law? The punishments in the bill isn't enough. And we should not be adding these people to social security until we are aware of the potential cost. I'd say if you raise the fine to about $20,000... then we might get closer to bringing the burden to taxpayers down.

I remember recently reading a study done by Gallup I think that showed that the population really isn't sure on what to do about immigration. They found only 30% of Americans favor granting amnesty. Nearly 70% favored providing a path to citizenship but what type of path is causing very deep divisions in all political divisions.

(in reply to selfbnd411)

Post #: 7

RE: Niether Due Process nor Equal Protection, this shit... - 6/4/2007 2:51:47 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Self, I meant that I'm not going to waste my time trying to argue with someone who uses the scandal ridden The New York Times as a "source."
They put their Editorials on the front page and News about those guys who wanted to blow up JFK airport on page 30 yesterday!
And any "polls" that they come up with are automatically suspect!
They "report the news" they way they "wish" it would be instead of the way it is.
Fargle should start using Madd Magazine as a source.
There's more "truth" in that than in the NYT's!

(in reply to selfbnd411)

Post #: 8

RE: Niether Due Process nor Equal Protection, this shit... - 6/4/2007 2:54:01 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

So, when you're just snatched off the street, and tossed into prison for the rest of your life, WHO DOES HAVE JURISDICTION?

Within the borders of the US, the civilian courts have jurisdiction.

However we are talking about non-citizens outside the border, and the constitution does not grant protections to foreign nationals.

I believe the EXACT QUOTE IS: " nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

So, since the United States, is for all purposes, a State in this context ( Since the States CREATED the United States, how could they give THEIR CREATION any authority they, themselves do not have??? ), then it is clear that, unlike your assertion, "ANY PERSON WITHIN ITS JURISDICTION", gets equal protection and due process.

Of course if it said "CITIZEN" and not "ANY PERSON", then perhaps you would have a point, and according to the Cuba Treaty's explicit wording, GITMO *IS* US Jurisdiction.

Just like an embassy, GITMO is US SOIL.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 9

RE: Niether Due Process nor Equal Protection, this shit... - 6/4/2007 2:58:33 PM

SugarMyChurro

Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline

U.S. news sources are all becoming very hard to trust. In an era of reporters making stories up and others having clandestine political connections - who can we trust for our information?

Rupert Murdoch owns much of the media. The guy is a right-wing thug that uses tax havens to avoid paying taxes. But yes, it's all perfectly legal...

Judith Miller of the New York Times is so far up this administration's ass that it's possible she hasn't seen daylight in some time.

The Washington Post is owned by the Moonies last I checked...

So yeah, that's what you get. Published polls showing that everyone favors this amnesty plan. Because if it's printed it must be the truth, right?

We are all being played. That's the only truth I can make out.

The BBC is *MAYBE* the only news source I semi-trust. The rest you have to take with rock salt.

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 10

RE: Niether Due Process nor Equal Protection, this shit... - 6/4/2007 3:04:51 PM

subfever

Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

U.S. news sources are all becoming very hard to trust. In an era of reporters making stories up and others having clandestine political connections - who can we trust for our information?

Rupert Murdoch owns much of the media. The guy is a right-wing thug that uses tax havens to avoid paying taxes. But yes, it's all perfectly legal...

Judith Miller of the New York Times is so far up this administration's ass that it's possible she hasn't seen daylight in some time.

The Washington Post is owned by the Moonies last I checked...

So yeah, that's what you get. Published polls showing that everyone favors this amnesty plan. Because if it's printed it must be the truth, right?

We are all being played. That's the only truth I can make out.

The BBC is *MAYBE* the only news source I semi-trust. The rest you have to take with rock salt.

Holy crappola... a CM newbie who thinks like me! Mark the calendar, and pop open the bubbly! Our ranks are growing...

< Message edited by subfever -- 6/4/2007 3:05:28 PM >

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 11

RE: Niether Due Process nor Equal Protection, this shit... - 6/4/2007 3:45:27 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
Within the borders of the US, the civilian courts have jurisdiction. However we are talking about non-citizens outside the border, and the constitution does not grant protections to foreign nationals. Therefore the military courts do have jurisdiction. The only authority above that is the US Supreme Court which is considered in the constitution the highest court in the land.

......i'm a tad confused. Where in all of that does it say that the US has a right to detain, refuse all legal protection, try and, potentially, execute foreign nationals.....on a burden of proof which no US citizen would accept against them? There is nothing in the current legal framework as being used by the US to prevent, say, Cyberdude from denouncing me secretly as being a terrorist, and the next time i cross the US border me being arrested, tried and executed. Hearsay is a travesty of justice, but thats the only thing keeping a proportion of Gitmo prisoners there........
The thing about human rights is that they apply to all humans...not just citizens of one country.

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 12

RE: Niether Due Process nor Equal Protection, this shit... - 6/4/2007 7:40:05 PM

Zensee

Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline

An article from the CBC on the case.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/06/04/khadr-charges.html

This link is to the As It Happens segment, interviewing Khadr's Canadian Lawyer. It's the second segment in Part 1.

http://www.cbc.ca/aih/latestshow.html

Apparently it's not really an acquittal but an open invitation for the prosecution to concoct... I mean discover new evidence or a new angle. This is their third attempt, IIRC.

The logic of this non-process beggars the legal imagination. It is astounding how many levels of hypocrisy are at work here.

Z.

_____________________________

"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 13

RE: Niether Due Process nor Equal Protection, this shit... - 6/4/2007 7:58:48 PM

Sinergy

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Joined: 4/26/2004
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I think it is despicable what the United States Government has done to a boy who was 16 when arrested.

He will never recover from his torture. It was conducted prior to his true self maturing to the point where it had a chance of withstanding what they have done to him. His life is fucked. Who knows what the hell he will end up doing if he ever obtains a release from Hell. I would not blame him in the least.

On the Government's side is the fact that he was filled full of bullets by US soldiers in Afghanistan after he threw a grenade at them and killed a couple. He had the misfortune to have survived, if one can call it misfortune.

He is a Canadian citizen. He was illegally incarcerated at Gitmo, which is considered by treaty to be US soil.

There is a reason that society frowns on certain actions. While I do not agree with Omar Khadr's upbringing, his beliefs, or his fundamentalist Islam heritage, I hope there is a special plane of hell reserved for the people who did what they did to him at Gitmo.

I am just pissed that AncencephalyBoy is forcing my hands to be bloody as well.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Zensee)

Post #: 14

RE: Niether Due Process nor Equal Protection, this shit... - 6/4/2007 8:24:47 PM

pollux

Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I think it is despicable what the United States Government has done to a boy who was 16 when arrested.

He will never recover from his torture. It was conducted prior to his true self maturing to the point where it had a chance of withstanding what they have done to him. His life is fucked. Who knows what the hell he will end up doing if he ever obtains a release from Hell. I would not blame him in the least.

On the Government's side is the fact that he was filled full of bullets by US soldiers in Afghanistan after he threw a grenade at them and killed a couple. He had the misfortune to have survived, if one can call it misfortune.

He is a Canadian citizen. He was illegally incarcerated at Gitmo, which is considered by treaty to be US soil.

There is a reason that society frowns on certain actions. While I do not agree with Omar Khadr's upbringing, his beliefs, or his fundamentalist Islam heritage, I hope there is a special plane of hell reserved for the people who did what they did to him at Gitmo.

I am just pissed that AncencephalyBoy is forcing my hands to be bloody as well.

Sinergy

Details, details.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 15

RE: Niether Due Process nor Equal Protection, this shit... - 6/4/2007 8:32:06 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

Yeah. Details.

Peace out.

Sinergy

p.s. My initial response to this was rather caustic, but I am not in the mood to be pissed off. Enjoy your
evening.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to pollux)

Post #: 16

RE: Niether Due Process nor Equal Protection, this shit... - 6/4/2007 9:00:49 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

Someone mentioned the Constitution, I like that in a thread.

But the Constitution is indeed flawed, and not just this. It does say "any person". If I had written it, it would be "any Citizen".

But it says what it says, and when you make the Law of the land subject to interpretation you have problems, you may note a few problems in the country today. That is unless you live in a glass bubble.

Saying what it says, that means what was done to the Native Americans here was also unlawful, so the piece of paper was out the window pretty fast, and now is but a symbol, even since then, before any of our lives began they had already wiped their ass with it.

Appropriations of land, forced relocations and attemped genocide are actually crimes then, and we now enjoy the loot from those crimes. And this is no joke.

They obviously meant that they will decide who is a person and who is not. If not, how could it be that some of the framers of the Constitution owned slaves ? If their slaves are people, then they have rights. It is obvious they decided Balcks were not people, that they were animals.

So it follows that they muxt have a definition of people that differs from the normally accepted version.

Now friends, if they can declare Blacks to be non-human, what is to stop them from doing the exact same thing you or me ?

Yes, I know what I am saying, that even the founding Fathers of this country were not moral. It's been said that some even had sex with their slave girls.

Now let me get this straight, when you need your fields tilled or your clothes washed they are not people. Then you have sex with them.

There ARE ONLY TWO POSSIBLE CONCLUSIONS !

You are either guilty of beastiality, or violating someone's "Creator bestowed" rights. Which is it ?

And these, I would think were the most moral people who had any real power since the creation of this country. They have made alot of "progress" in the last 200 years haven't they ?

Amnesty International is already after our ass for a few things, and it means nothing. I believe that AI is one of the few things on Earth worth donating to, as do quite a few people is the US. With the Patriot act they could almost be charged with terrorism now, and just let's hope no AI rep or employee ever gets busted doing anything.

Yes "they" have made alot of progress and are very happy about it, are you ?

T

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 17

RE: Niether Due Process nor Equal Protection, this shit... - 6/5/2007 6:33:44 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Within the borders of the US, the civilian courts have jurisdiction. However we are talking about non-citizens outside the border, and the constitution does not grant protections to foreign nationals. Therefore the military courts do have jurisdiction. The only authority above that is the US Supreme Court which is considered in the constitution the highest court in the land.

Keep in mind though that SCOTUS does not usually get involved in situtions like this. The only times they did was during WW2 concerning the executions of captured Nazi spies, which the court allowed. But during that time there was an official declaration of war which changes the legal landscape a bit. We don't have a declaration in this case.

cyberdude611:
In the particular case you cited did you find it interesting that they also executed the man who turned them in. He was a member of the team of spies who landed here who at his first opportunity went to the authorities and exposed his whole group. I never understood that. Have you any thoughts on the matter. You are one of only a very few people I have ever encountered who even knew about this event in our history.
thompson

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 18

RE: Niether Due Process nor Equal Protection, this shit... - 6/5/2007 6:45:00 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Editorials on the front page and News about those guys who wanted to blow up JFK airport on page 30 yesterday!

news for a day.

everytime you see one of these be sure to follow the entire outcame because most off it is news for a day only because they want more money. they get their money, the story dies, peple move on to other current crisises, and the supposed perps get off on a technicality or the gov cant make a case. works every time!

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 19

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