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President Putin is building up his military - 5/31/2007 1:48:14 PM

LdyScarletDomina

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Joined: 4/22/2007
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I read in a news article today that President Putin of Russia is building Russia's missile defense program and testing missiles again in response to the growing missile bases the US is putting out there. He talked about global balance and that the US is pushing the brinks of imperialism and that there must be a balance of power. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070531/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin;_ylt=AsTBoY3cZ259pf7ob8z9oqFI2ocA

Does anyone know what the political implications for this are going to be? I can be a bit slow on politics and I'm curious about what the openminded folk here think of this. Can anyone explain to me the different implications of this situation to me so that when my Owner wants to talk about it I feel educated as opposed to ignorant? Does this mean that the US is starting to be seen as a fetal Napoleon beefing up the military? Thank you to any who are willing to help me out, I'm trying hard to follow the politics but sometimes its hard to find the implications for myself

Lady Scarlet

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RE: President Putin is building up his military - 5/31/2007 3:57:20 PM

SimplyMichael

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Depends on if your owner is a liberal or a Republican. If he is a Republican, it is always somebody elses fault. If he is a liberal or at least intelligent, Russia is rearming for a variety of reasons, primarily Bush's heavy handed and inept foreign policy.

Russia has Muslim areas it wants to crush and Bush slapped their hands when they attempted to do so all while violating every code of human conduct in our little oil grab.

Russia has fears of being isolated and held hostage to Western and US technology/weaponry as well as basic penis envy and is pissed that we are deploying the missle shield and doesn't buy the bullshit it is only for rogue states. Any competent diplomat could deal with that one but Bush hasn't got one.

Russia knows that whomever controls energy is going to either be conquered (Iraq), or in control (China) and those countires who don't pull their head out of their ass (US) will be looking to take control of whomever has oil/gas and Russia has both.

(in reply to LdyScarletDomina)

Post #: 2

RE: President Putin is building up his military - 5/31/2007 4:22:48 PM

LdyScarletDomina

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Sir Michael

Thank you for an honest opinion. The Master is liberal and I believe the word libertarian has cropped up. I'm not really certain where I fit in, but I know whats happening right now on both sides of major parties doesn't feel right.

Um, I have a question. If we loose the Iraq war and idiots like Bush stay in control, wouldn't Russia have to worry about us picking a war with them to get to Siberian Oil? Isn't it in their best interest to bulk up their ability to protect themselves against another country trying to take whats theirs?

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RE: President Putin is building up his military - 5/31/2007 4:27:17 PM

kittinSol

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Yes... I think Michael's answer is probably quite true, albeit slightly (sic!) biased.

The point is that the world isn't made of the USA only. There are other nations that may feel threatened by Big Brother/Uncle Sam's apparent omnipotence.

Don't forget how scary the States look from the outside. To other countries, it's terrifying to witness the self-interest that governs the foreign policy of this country... so they do... the stupid thing: increase their arm stocks. What the weaker kid in the playground would do, which is to get ready for an attack. And let's not forget how prompt the USA are at attacking others.

It's nothing new, it happened as far as I can remember (not all the way into the beginnings of the Cold War, hey, I'm not that old

)... if you are really interested there are countless books and articles on the subject. Good luck!

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RE: President Putin is building up his military - 5/31/2007 4:30:42 PM

Real0ne

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yup! and so is china "IN RESPONSE" to the growing US THREAT.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 5/31/2007 4:31:44 PM >

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(in reply to LdyScarletDomina)

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RE: President Putin is building up his military - 5/31/2007 4:41:48 PM

LdyScarletDomina

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I've learned through experience that while books contain a wealth of valueable information, sometimes the best education comes from combining that with the varied opinions of others who are up to date and willing to teach. And I'm a wiz at literature and English, but politics is a science and sometimes I require a VERY patient teacher to walk me through the tangled webs.

Lady S

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RE: President Putin is building up his military - 5/31/2007 4:52:35 PM

cyberdude611

Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Depends on if your owner is a liberal or a Republican. If he is a Republican, it is always somebody elses fault. If he is a liberal or at least intelligent, Russia is rearming for a variety of reasons, primarily Bush's heavy handed and inept foreign policy.

Russia has Muslim areas it wants to crush and Bush slapped their hands when they attempted to do so all while violating every code of human conduct in our little oil grab.

Russia has fears of being isolated and held hostage to Western and US technology/weaponry as well as basic penis envy and is pissed that we are deploying the missle shield and doesn't buy the bullshit it is only for rogue states. Any competent diplomat could deal with that one but Bush hasn't got one.

Russia knows that whomever controls energy is going to either be conquered (Iraq), or in control (China) and those countires who don't pull their head out of their ass (US) will be looking to take control of whomever has oil/gas and Russia has both.

Its not really that simple...

There are a lot of different things going on here. Yes there are tensions with the US building but also with the European Union and the former Soviet Republics. There are also increasing domestic problems inside Russia. To fully understand this you have to understand the political culture in Russia. Russians are not used to or experienced with democracy. They like strong leaders, a strong military, and they like being a major player on the world stage. You look at Russia today and you don't see this. There is corruption in the government. The economy is still a mess. There are issues with electoral fraud and human rights. Alcoholism is also a major social problem. And Russia has a decreasing population. In other words there are more people leaving that country than there are coming in or being born.

You also have to look at Europe. The EU has been highly critical of Putin. The Europeans claim that Putin has changed the political structure in Russia so that his party will always have influence. And that the creation of an opposition party is a form of deception since the leader of that opposition party is a close and personal friend to Putin and agrees with most of his ideas. Opposition candidates also claim intimidation and voter fraud. Rules have been changed so that you would need an astronomical amount of signitures to get on a ballot, and even then the government can reject the petition by simply claiming the signitures are forged.

The Kremlin is also angry at the fact that most of the former soviet republics have become very friendly with Europe and the United States. And the hardliners in the Russian government have become very concerned of the ideas recently by Europe and the US to include some of those republics into NATO. And the recent events in Ukraine with the presidential election is evident that the Kremlin does still fear the west as they even went the extreme of posioning the pro-western candidate.

Keep in mind also that Putin must step down in March 2008 according to the constitution. Many outside Russia do not trust him or his party that they will hand over power in a fair and democratic manner. Putin may be making these bold moves purposely to make himself look stronger and more powerful. This is not an uncommon practice for Russian leaders, even during the Soviet era. The more powerful you appear, the more popular you become.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 7

RE: President Putin is building up his military - 5/31/2007 5:12:11 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

The more powerful you appear, the more popular you become.

Yes. And so say all of the world leaders, not just the Russian ones.

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RE: President Putin is building up his military - 5/31/2007 5:28:10 PM

RPutnamJr

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I agree with cyberdude, you have to look at the whole picture and know the history of the region and all the factors that truely affect it.

Simplymichael is very biased in his analysis even if it is somewhat on the mark.

With the USA being the only major superpower on the planet right now several countries are trying to fill the void left by the old Soviet Union. Russia wants to regain their status as a superpower, China wants to jump into the mix, and the EU also wants to become a player in world politics.

When looking at Russia's point of view all three the USA, China, and EU all threaten Russia mostly due to proximity and/or power. From the USA's point of view China and Russia are the two we fear the most although personally China is a bigger threat in my opinion right now than Russia although given the resources Russia has access to if it would ever get their shit together Russia in the long run would be a bigger threat. China though is the bigger threat currently because they do have their act together and are using the world's fear of the USA to strengthen their position.

The militancy of the USA right now just feeds into those fears. I personally do not think we are any more militant now than before. Without though a counter balance to our military power I think it just seems that we are mor militant. It's like looking at a playground full of kids and seeing the big kid because he is so big. The world has problems and who does the world look to to solve them? Lets face the facts...the USA, because we are the only country that can and is willing to take on the problems. And yes I'm not a fool we do cause alot of the problems the world faces today, but we are not the only country that causes problems in the world. Every country seeks out what is in the best interest of that country for the moment and not what is best for the world as a whole. Being the big kid though doest mean we can influence others easier than if your the small kid on the block.

Robert

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 9

RE: President Putin is building up his military - 5/31/2007 6:36:57 PM

LdyScarletDomina

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Joined: 4/22/2007
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Thank you guys for all the opinions. I learn alot when I come here with questions

Lady Scarlet

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(in reply to RPutnamJr)

Post #: 10

RE: President Putin is building up his military - 6/1/2007 2:53:29 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Its not really that simple...

There are a lot of different things going on here. Yes there are tensions with the US building but also with the European Union and the former Soviet Republics. There are also increasing domestic problems inside Russia. To fully understand this you have to understand the political culture in Russia. Russians are not used to or experienced with democracy. They like strong leaders, a strong military, and they like being a major player on the world stage. You look at Russia today and you don't see this. There is corruption in the government. The economy is still a mess. There are issues with electoral fraud and human rights. Alcoholism is also a major social problem. And Russia has a decreasing population. In other words there are more people leaving that country than there are coming in or being born.

The Russian economy collapse because it listened to American(neocon) advice and privatised everything. Millions of ordinary people fell deep into poverty and oligarchs basically robbed the Russian state. None of the promises made by the west during the democratisation of Russia were kept and western countries were basically taking advantage of the poor state of the Russian economy to get natural resources at bargain basement rates. Putin came to power and rightly assessed the Russian state and Russian people were getting ripped off and began to put things right (from a Russian perspective). Now the west has got itself into a position of reliance on Russian resources and it serves them right. As for electoral fraud, I've heard rumours of that in the US. I guess it depends on whose interest it is to say there is fraud. Putin is genuinely popular in Russia for putting Russia back on the map.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

The Kremlin is also angry at the fact that most of the former soviet republics have become very friendly with Europe and the United States. And the hardliners in the Russian government have become very concerned of the ideas recently by Europe and the US to include some of those republics into NATO. And the recent events in Ukraine with the presidential election is evident that the Kremlin does still fear the west as they even went the extreme of posioning the pro-western candidate.

The Kremlin isn't angry because former soviet Republics have become friendly with Europe and the USA, it wasn't happy about it. However, it is angry and feels threatened by the western push for militarisation in eastern Europe and the proposed missile bases in Czech and Poland. If you think about it, the US wasn't happy and wouldn't be happy with missile bases on Cuba. The Russians aren't being over sensitive, the west ignored Russian attempts to become part of the west who are basically having an arms build up on the Russian border. Russia has just said enough is enough, they have the money to rearm and in the face of an American arms build up on their border they will build their arms up too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Keep in mind also that Putin must step down in March 2008 according to the constitution. Many outside Russia do not trust him or his party that they will hand over power in a fair and democratic manner. Putin may be making these bold moves purposely to make himself look stronger and more powerful. This is not an uncommon practice for Russian leaders, even during the Soviet era. The more powerful you appear, the more popular you become.

Many Russians might not trust him but the vast majority do! He has an approval ratings American Presidents would die for. He has put Russia back on the map and ended the national humiliation at the hands of the west.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/1/2007 2:57:11 AM >

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RE: President Putin is building up his military - 6/1/2007 3:08:00 AM

seeksfemslave

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There is no doubt that historically, say since 1945, the US has threatened and militarily encircled in order to contain what was the old Soviet Union. That threat to Russia has not gone away; aggravated as has been said, with internal divisions from the new Republics.

So surely anyone should be able to see that what Putin is doing is logical. NO?
Whether hard line Western nationalist right wingers like it is irrelevent.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 12

RE: President Putin is building up his military - 6/1/2007 3:27:30 AM

LadyEllen

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From: Stourport-England
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Rather than chasing round the planet invading and coercing to obtain oil and gas, I dont understand why we dont make ourselves independent of reliance on fossil fuels. Greenhouse gas emission targets reached, no threat to our energy supply and no need for so much military expenditure.

But then, rich people wouldnt get richer by building the tanks and planes and equipping the troops, and the troops might not have jobs to do; all of which needs paying for by way of the sale of fossil fuels which we need tanks, planes and troops to obtain. What an interesting cycle of self destruction.

Just wait until the freshwater wars start. The Russians should be OK on that one though - Lake Baikal I believe it is, contains 1/5 of the world's supply.

E

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RE: President Putin is building up his military - 6/1/2007 6:43:30 AM

SimplyMichael

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I love how I am "biased" but nobody countered anything I said.

Oil is running out, everyone knows that but the American public, gas in Europe is three or four times as expensive becaue they don't want their people dependent on it when it runs out.

The move into Iraq was part of a grand scheme to control the oil before China can. Synergy has an interesting theory it was to take the oil off the market so the Saudis could clean up on expensive oil and then we (meaning big oil, not we American taxpayers) could pump it out later when it was even more expensive and strategic..

The Russians fear a Chinese move north in Siberia but as someone once said "never get involved in land war in Asia" and nobody else could ever threaten that oil. Same goes for the oil in the Stans. Too close to Russia and too far for anyone else.

Russia doesn't have the money to go after the worlds oil, China is awash in US dollars thanks to their undervalued Yuan (something Bush whines about but does nothing, which is typical) and their holdings of US debt give them a fair bit of leverage although Bush being a lame duck could actually deal with it but won't. China is buying access to oil everywhere, striking deals in our own backyard with Venezuala where most of the US oil comes from.

Russia sees many threats, some real some not. Putin, like Bush, is stoking domestic fears to allow him to push his authoritarian agenda.

(in reply to LdyScarletDomina)

Post #: 14

RE: President Putin is building up his military - 6/1/2007 10:31:38 AM

pahunkboy

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From: Central Pennsylvania
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water wars. yup. the great lakes is a vast source of fresh water we share with Canada. in the 80s they started to clean it up. at one time lake erie was on fire.

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RE: President Putin is building up his military - 6/1/2007 11:40:44 AM

caitlyn

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Well, as usual, it's all the fault of the United States. Sometimes I think my buddy Meatcleaver could spin a way to make defeat at Hastings, the fault of the United States. Tell me though ... were the Soviets doing all that well before they privatized everything? You may find this shocking, but nobody over here forced them to get in an arms race with a nation far richer than themselves.

Tell me Meat ... don't the Russians deserve some of the blame, for just being stupid? Aren't they still being stupid, trying to play games with more powerful nations, as if the glory of the Soviet State of post WWII was still alive?

I hate to make it seem simple ... but it really is. Putin can't defy the United States, and expect our help. The right or wrong of that isn't really on-point ... it just is, what it is.

That said, if Putin wants to try this building the military tactic yet again ... he should go for it, and it's certainly his right. Nothing has significantly changed since the last time that was tried ... he will just play out the same scenario.

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RE: President Putin is building up his military - 6/1/2007 1:00:34 PM

LdyScarletDomina

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LadyEllen

Excellent point. I read some news like 2 days ago about a new car ( produced by INDIA of all freakin places) that runs on COMPRESSED AIR. Kinda scarey that India is ecologically ahead of one of the richest countries in the world!

Lady Scarlet

_____________________________

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Post #: 17

RE: President Putin is building up his military - 6/1/2007 2:21:35 PM

cyberdude611

Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I love how I am "biased" but nobody countered anything I said.

Oil is running out, everyone knows that but the American public, gas in Europe is three or four times as expensive becaue they don't want their people dependent on it when it runs out.

The move into Iraq was part of a grand scheme to control the oil before China can. Synergy has an interesting theory it was to take the oil off the market so the Saudis could clean up on expensive oil and then we (meaning big oil, not we American taxpayers) could pump it out later when it was even more expensive and strategic..

The Russians fear a Chinese move north in Siberia but as someone once said "never get involved in land war in Asia" and nobody else could ever threaten that oil. Same goes for the oil in the Stans. Too close to Russia and too far for anyone else.

Russia doesn't have the money to go after the worlds oil, China is awash in US dollars thanks to their undervalued Yuan (something Bush whines about but does nothing, which is typical) and their holdings of US debt give them a fair bit of leverage although Bush being a lame duck could actually deal with it but won't. China is buying access to oil everywhere, striking deals in our own backyard with Venezuala where most of the US oil comes from.

Russia sees many threats, some real some not. Putin, like Bush, is stoking domestic fears to allow him to push his authoritarian agenda.

Oil is not running out. According to some experts, we have more oil in the Gulf of Mexico and Alaska than all the middle-east. We also have huge stockpile of oil. We are bathing in oil. That is not the problem. We have enough oil for another 100 years...easily. The problem is refining capability. The demand for oil is up but the demand for gasoline is sky-rocketting. Our refineries, which we havn't built since 1976, is operating at full capacity and the demand that we can't meet we end up importing. And that where the issue is. What needs to happen is our government needs to build more refineries and tell te environmentalists to shut the f*** up for the next 20-30 years before we can start to move towards alternative energy. Right now I think the need to get off mid-east oil is more important than forcing Americans to buy electric cars.

Why havn't we built more refineries so far? 2 reasons....
1. Environmentalists hope to push the price of gas up so high that it will eventually be too expensive to drive.
2. Oil companies love the profits that come in with higher demand.

We did not attack Iraq for oil. How do I know this? Because we so far have not gotten a drop of it yet. Gas sells in Baghdad for a pennies a gallon. It sells in Venezuela for .50 a gallon. It is $3.00 a gallon in the US and $5 a gallon in Europe.

And it's typical for you and meatcleaver to blame America whenever possible. Russia is doing nothing but acting like Russian. Look at their history. Look at their politics. And tell me that they havn't made these kind of moves before.... This is typical Russian behavior. That government has always feared the US. It has always feared Europe. That aspect hasn't changed.

And if you really want to point blame at someone....blame Putin. Putin is the only selling weapons to the highest bidder. He is the one selling nuclear material to Iran. Our defense shield and invasion in the mid-east was caused by Russia supplying weapons to terrorists and nuclear material to Iran. Cause and effect.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 18

RE: President Putin is building up his military - 6/1/2007 3:52:52 PM

SimplyMichael

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quote:

We did not attack Iraq for oil. How do I know this? Because we so far have not gotten a drop of it yet

You are just the cutest! Thanks for making my day.

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Post #: 19

RE: President Putin is building up his military - 6/1/2007 5:14:47 PM

Dtesmoac

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USA spends more on military than the rest of the world combined each year ........ how can Russian or Chinese build up of military power at this point be a threat to the US ?
Europe has no inclination to build military forces to compare with US.
US is constantly pushing for European members of NATO to in crease military spending, to support US foreign policy not a seperate European policy - which is more likely.
US is currently the only convential military super power however it and Russia still have the capability to destroy the world in a nuclear exchange.
If the US is able to become the only country that is able to not be threatened by inter continental ballistic missiles then its "military super power" status goes up another notch. Technologically it seems unlikely that the US could / would build an anti missile system that could stop an all out exchange of missiles with Russia (at least within foreseable future).
From US prospective it is sensible to be able to take out the odd missile from a "rougue" nation. From some other countries perspective if the US achieves this it is likely to play fast lose and silly (even more so than now) with even more countries.
The US tendancy to isolationism (genuine wish by the general public to not go round invading or meddling in other countries affairs) is not understood, believed, accepted by other populations around the world. (For all the mess in Iraq very few people in the US do / ever wanted to actually rule Iraq as part of an empire.. !!)

Europe has more to fear from the Russian position than the US, having made itself reliant upon Russian energy and natural resources.

In a conventional war could the US take on Russia ............. and Win........... mmmmmm Now that is a debate which would need to be based upon what constitues win.... but that is another thread.

China - being built with US dollars....well ok Walmart dollars................ !!!

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 20

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