RE: President Putin is building up his military

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Griswold -> RE: President Putin is building up his military (6/1/2007 5:22:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LdyScarletDomina I read in a news article today that President Putin of Russia is building Russia's missile defense program and testing missiles again in response to the growing missile bases the US is putting out there. He talked about global balance and that the US is pushing the brinks of imperialism and that there must be a balance of power. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070531/ap_on_re_eu/russia_putin;_ylt=AsTBoY3cZ259pf7ob8z9oqFI2ocA Does anyone know what the political implications for this are going to be? I can be a bit slow on politics and I'm curious about what the openminded folk here think of this. Can anyone explain to me the different implications of this situation to me so that when my Owner wants to talk about it I feel educated as opposed to ignorant? Does this mean that the US is starting to be seen as a fetal Napoleon beefing up the military? Thank you to any who are willing to help me out, I'm trying hard to follow the politics but sometimes its hard to find the implications for myself Lady Scarlet Hon, Russia (Putin's GDP) has grown by 300% in the last 5 years (Read: Oil). He has a newfound desire to make his mark in the world. Ours has grown 10 - 20%. Off of 10 - 13 trillion. (See next). His (Russia's) was 65 billion a few years ago....today it's 3 times that (and growing). Consider that, three years ago...his world empire was a bit impish. Today it's 3 times "impish". Now, consider that, while they had breadlines (trust me, I'm not pimping the Republican line here)...only a few years past... Consider further....when you have breadlines for 20 years...and suddenly...you have 130 billion more available....suddenly things look pretty fucking good. In fact, now you can sell bread for 2 bucks (US) a loaf (instead of 7 bucks), but....condos (yes...believe it or not Russians actually can buy...and own real estate) now sell for $47,000.00 in Bellarussia...as opposed to "I'd like to kill my sister as opposed to purchasing my own home"... It ain't that good. Consider the above (13 trillion as opposed to 185 billion GDP)...but... They're growing fast. And they've built their economy on a GDP that consumes less....they'll consume more soon...but it'll take time.... In the meantime...they produce a lot of oil...and we don't. And they've designed their economy such that oil is not a big factor....ours is. They'll come around....the world is not all in their basket. But they do hold the key...for a time. We need to be watchfull.

cyberdude611 -> RE: President Putin is building up his military (6/1/2007 5:52:48 PM)
The US and Russia had a gun pointed at each other for 50 years.... And neither side was stupid enough to pull the trigger first. Not only are we not aiming the guns directly at each other anymore....but it is still true that neither side wants to die. War games is part of global politics. That's all it is. You are not going to see a war between the US and Russia. And you won't see a war between the US and China either. It's just not going to happen. China, Russia, and the US know any war between themselves would be devastating on all sides. That price is just too high to pay. Keep in mind also that Russia is a bit pissed off because the US took down Saddam Hussein. Not that Russia really cares about Iraq, but the Saddam regime owed several billions of dollars to Russia. And now Russia will never see that money again.

Griswold -> RE: President Putin is building up his military (6/1/2007 6:18:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 The US and Russia had a gun pointed at each other for 50 years.... And neither side was stupid enough to pull the trigger first. Not only are we not aiming the guns directly at each other anymore.... Au Contraire.

mnottertail -> RE: President Putin is building up his military (6/1/2007 6:31:01 PM)
Si vooo play? Let us sit down and reason together. You and me. I will honor your word, and am sure you will mine, or there will be serious and immediate repercussions. I will trust but verify, I offer the same rights. You and I will offer written guarentee to the world. Or, who has reason to dispute my claim to who I am? I will listen, but I may not sympathize. Knowing this, you wanna go grab a brewski? Jus' askin' Fon Dio Mascaro

UtopianRanger -> RE: President Putin is building up his military (6/1/2007 8:26:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Well, as usual, it's all the fault of the United States. Sometimes I think my buddy Meatcleaver could spin a way to make defeat at Hastings, the fault of the United States. Tell me though ... were the Soviets doing all that well before they privatized everything? You may find this shocking, but nobody over here forced them to get in an arms race with a nation far richer than themselves. The resource /infrastructure privatization schemes cooked up by the ''Chicago boyz'' school of economic reality are extremely parasitical in nature. Whenever they've been employed, they've served as a nucleus for societal breakdown / greater separation of classes. Just imagine what would happen if all our power plants, roads, bridges, water & sewer infrastructure, cops, fireman and airports were all put up for bid, and five or six global corporations and a host of their subsidiaries owned and controlled it all. You think paying 3.40 a gallon is shity{pardon the pun}....wait till someone comes up with scheme to make and increase ''profits'' every time you flush your toilet. You might not like ''how'' he communicates it, but MeatCleaver is spot on the money when he says speaks to the New York-DC-London power axis that was behind the looting of Russia's wealth / resources during the Yeltsen years. Personally.....I love what the Russians are doing. The alternate pole they've constructed, known as the ''Shanghai Cooperation Network'' is the counter to NATO and more importantly, a uni-polar world. This formation /super-structure is a wonderful thing for the average American…..they just don’t know it yet. Every single time a country like Iran or Russia tells us to fuck off or helps the indigenous fighters in Iraq, it further preserves the concept of the nation-state and drives nails into the idea of a uni-polar ''global government''. Yes… subversion and reciprocity are beautiful [;)] - R

caitlyn -> RE: President Putin is building up his military (6/2/2007 7:06:31 AM)
It is spot-on, only if you completely ignore how the Russians got in that mess in the first place ... by engaging in an arms buildup with the United States. I'm all for taking the blame when deserved ... but in this instance, in my view, Meatcleaver and yourself are taking a position and promoting only the facts that fit that position, rather than looking at all the facts before forming one. At the close of the Second World War, the Soviets were left with a free hand in Eastern Europe. This is what they wanted, and it was left to them. Given the military situation right at the end of the war, there is little doubt that the United States could have imposed its will, had it so desired. The cold war, was still a war. It had a winner, and a loser. It's pointless to debate the right and wrong of the parties involved. Neither the United States, nor the Soviet Union was forced to engage in cold conflict. Blaming the winner, is not logical, in my view. To the victor, goes the spoils.

Dtesmoac -> RE: President Putin is building up his military (6/2/2007 5:40:14 PM)
Blaming the winner, is not logical, in my view. To the victor, goes the spoils. Its the fact that the USA in 1945 / 46 did not believe / do this that the prosperity and potential of the seconf half of the 20th Century was to a degree fulfilled. Magnaminity in Victory provides greater wealth than plunder......... !!

jj292 -> RE: President Putin is building up his military (6/2/2007 7:06:40 PM)
Russia has a lot of problems. They cant afford a war with anybody right now. Sure things are looking good in Moscow or the big cities in western Russia, but the rest of the country has serious economic and social issues. It is highly doubtful Russia will get back to the superpower status they enjoyed during the Cold War anytime soon. That system they had was supported by doing things that today would be considered unacceptable by international standards of human rights. The Soviet Union moved vast numbers of people (up to 40 million) into Siberia to construct mining and smelting cities. Some of these cities were also used to construct atomic, biological, and chemical weapons. Many of these cities did not even have names during the Cold War because they trying to hide them from the United States. But after the Soviet Union fell, these cities gave themselves names and they still exist today in very remote places of Siberia. The problem is that today these cities are not producing like they were, nor is there a need for the material they once produced. So it created an economic vacuum. And now Russia is spending a ton of money to support these places. These people in these places are lost in time. The cities are still closed to the outside world. And polution is so bad in some of them that few people live past age 40 and the vegitation is dying. The future? Russia is slowing moving in a positive direction economically. Politically I am not so sure. I think Russians need to lay off the vodka for a bit and get their country on the right tack politically.

SimplyMichael -> RE: President Putin is building up his military (6/2/2007 10:55:06 PM)
caitlyn, You are stunningly bright for your age but I think your teachers are not exposing you enough to a bit of the darker realities. What some are arguing has zero to do with the cold war era and everything to do with the post cold war era. Freedmens boys raped Russia economically and Putin ain't having it. I am not a fan of what is happening in Russia but that isn't the same as saying it is happening out of the blue. As anyone who has to pay for rainwater what they think of IMF policies, Russia was gamed in much the same way and they are pissed. However, unlike the third world, Russia can do something about it and has and will. It was deeply short sighted to allow Russia to be so raped and even deeper to not help them out of it after the fact. One more place Bush had a chance to change the world for the better and fucked it up deeply.

UtopianRanger -> RE: President Putin is building up his military (6/3/2007 12:14:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn It is spot-on, only if you completely ignore how the Russians got in that mess in the first place ... by engaging in an arms buildup with the United States. I'm all for taking the blame when deserved ... but in this instance, in my view, Meatcleaver and yourself are taking a position and promoting only the facts that fit that position, rather than looking at all the facts before forming one. At the close of the Second World War, the Soviets were left with a free hand in Eastern Europe. This is what they wanted, and it was left to them. Given the military situation right at the end of the war, there is little doubt that the United States could have imposed its will, had it so desired. The cold war, was still a war. It had a winner, and a loser. It's pointless to debate the right and wrong of the parties involved. Neither the United States, nor the Soviet Union was forced to engage in cold conflict. Blaming the winner, is not logical, in my view. To the victor, goes the spoils. Caitlyn….. I could be hella wrong about this…..but I think the problem you and a few others have with some of Meatcleavers and maybe some of the Gent’s posts, is you take them at face value as if they are attacking you specifically/ personally. When I read their posts that criticize this country, what they’re really criticizing is the leadership at the decision-making level. Their attacks on the leadership don’t reflect on you or I, or any of the other Americans in this forum; even though some of us voted for that leadership. Why do we not share any responsibility here? Simply because we’ve been tricked like no other time during our physical presence on this planet. I think it’s a good idea to disassociate yourself from any internal criticism you might feel when our leadership is attacked; because in this rare instance, you can’t be held responsible for what’s happened. But from this point forward, it's our job to recognize this type of slight-of-hand and make sure it never happens again [;)] - R

meatcleaver -> RE: President Putin is building up his military (6/3/2007 1:54:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger I could be hella wrong about this…..but I think the problem you and a few others have with some of Meatcleavers and maybe some of the Gent’s posts, is you take them at face value as if they are attacking you specifically/ personally. When I read their posts that criticize this country, what they’re really criticizing is the leadership at the decision-making level. This is where my criticism is aimed UR and I criticize the leadership of my own and other European countries as well. I've had plenty of run ins with NG over the EU for example. As for the criticism of the advice given by the US to Russia, I got that information from a US documentary. I wish I had noted the sources but it vcame across as a balanced piece of work.

Dtesmoac -> RE: President Putin is building up his military (6/3/2007 7:40:38 AM)
"The gap between how we see ourselves and how others see us has become a chasm, dangerosulsy so. "US MILITARY AND ECONOMIC POWER NOTWITHSTANDING, WE CANNOT BE SECURE WITHOUT THE RESPECT, SUPPORT, AND YES AFFECTION OF PEOPLE IN OTHER LANDS. WE ARE LOSING THAT; we may have lost it .......Why? I could not have imagined then or even a few years ago that I would one day write the forward to a volume entitles America Against the World: How We Are Different and Why We Are Disliked ........" Madeline K. Albright 2006 International poles are indicating that where as in the past it was the American Country that was disliked and its people were liked, more recent poles are indicating a trend toward faling respect and like for the "American people" Some consider that this is a very bad thing.

cyberdude611 -> RE: President Putin is building up his military (6/3/2007 8:44:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac "The gap between how we see ourselves and how others see us has become a chasm, dangerosulsy so. "US MILITARY AND ECONOMIC POWER NOTWITHSTANDING, WE CANNOT BE SECURE WITHOUT THE RESPECT, SUPPORT, AND YES AFFECTION OF PEOPLE IN OTHER LANDS. WE ARE LOSING THAT; we may have lost it .......Why? I could not have imagined then or even a few years ago that I would one day write the forward to a volume entitles America Against the World: How We Are Different and Why We Are Disliked ........" Madeline K. Albright 2006 International poles are indicating that where as in the past it was the American Country that was disliked and its people were liked, more recent poles are indicating a trend toward faling respect and like for the "American people" Some consider that this is a very bad thing. We are disliked because we are the sole superpower. No one likes when Jeff Gordon wins every race. Or when Tiger Woods wins every golf tournament. Or when Roger Federer wins every Tennis match. Or when the Yankees win every other World Series. When one group or person always wins...it creates two kinds of people. One type will love the winner and jump on the bandwagon. The other group will hate the winner and hope for their downfall at every turn. There is a term in the NFL. The only bad thing after winning the Super Bowl is the next season you have a bullseye painted on you. Every team in the league is gunning for you. We won the Cold War. We won WWII and control both the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. We are the world's only superpower. We have the most powerful military on the planet. We have power and influence over every global organization. And everyone is gunning for us. People want to see the underdog win for once.

Level -> RE: President Putin is building up his military (6/3/2007 12:47:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Griswold quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 The US and Russia had a gun pointed at each other for 50 years.... And neither side was stupid enough to pull the trigger first. Not only are we not aiming the guns directly at each other anymore.... Au Contraire. Indeed......... "ROME - Russian President Vladimir Putin warned that U.S. plans to build a missile defense system in Eastern Europe would force Moscow to target its weapons against Europe. The threat, in an interview published Sunday in Italy’s Corriere della Sera and other foreign media, marked one of Putin’s most strident statements to date against the U.S. plans and came just days before he is to join President Bush and other leaders at a Group of Eight summit in Germany. In the interview, Putin was asked whether the proposed missile defense shield would compel Moscow to direct its own missiles at locations and U.S. military sites in Europe, as during the Cold War." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19013495

caitlyn -> RE: President Putin is building up his military (6/3/2007 1:39:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger I could be hella wrong about this…..but I think the problem you and a few others have with some of Meatcleavers and maybe some of the Gent’s posts, is you take them at face value as if they are attacking you specifically/ personally. When I read their posts that criticize this country, what they’re really criticizing is the leadership at the decision-making level. Their attacks on the leadership don’t reflect on you or I, or any of the other Americans in this forum; even though some of us voted for that leadership. Why do we not share any responsibility here? Simply because we’ve been tricked like no other time during our physical presence on this planet. I think it’s a good idea to disassociate yourself from any internal criticism you might feel when our leadership is attacked; because in this rare instance, you can’t be held responsible for what’s happened. But from this point forward, it's our job to recognize this type of slight-of-hand and make sure it never happens again [;)] No, I don't think they are attacking me personally. What I do think though, is that the same people that want the United States to keep their nose out of other country's business, can't seem to keep their nose out of ours. I have a lot of issues with this country ... hell, if I had my way, we would overthrow our government and put in place, one that will actually do the will of the people. If I had my way, things like nation building and overthrowing the government of another country, would be strictly prohibited. But you see ... I live here, pay tax here, and if this country was ever attacked, I would die here, defending my home (as much defense as one-hundred pound people can give ... [;)]). When you get to the constant critics from across the water ... they have no stake. This isn't their home, they don't pay taxes here, and if you know anything about the history of Europe, you know they would be the first to pick our bones if we ever fell. So, in closing ... it's not that I think they are attacking me ... it's that I think they are just busy-body drama-ramma queens. You don't see a bunch of Americans going off on all things Britain, nor do you see less drama-ramma British posters feeling the need to bash and mindfuck, everything we do. Probably not a very popular post ... but you can't say I'm not being honest with my feelings. [;)]

Dtesmoac -> RE: President Putin is building up his military (6/3/2007 2:00:55 PM)
What I do think though, is that the same people that want the United States to keep their nose out of other country's business, can't seem to keep their nose out of ours. *No country can now keep it's nose out of others affairs, the world is to interconnected. using a car in Seattle has impact in Delhi.....* I have a lot of issues with this country ... hell, if I had my way, we would overthrow our government and put in place, one that will actually do the will of the people. If I had my way, things like nation building and overthrowing the government of another country, would be strictly prohibited. But you see ... I live here, pay tax here, and if this country was ever attacked, I would die here, defending my home (as much defense as one-hundred pound people can give ... [;)]). they don't pay taxes here, .I currently pay US tax. : ) much less than the UK tax I will again be paying next year...... and if you know anything about the history of Europe, you know they would be the first to pick our bones if we ever fell. Primary concern is that the fall of the US should not happen, however the international perspective upon the US is becoming increasingly poor. This is now changing from being anti Americanism (against the country / policies of the country? to anti Americans (the individual people/s). Such a situation is bad for US and bad for rest of the world, and will be exploited by enemies of US and others. So, in closing ... it's not that I think they are attacking me ... it's that I think they are just busy-body drama-ramma queens. You don't see a bunch of Americans going off on all things Britain, nor do you see less drama-ramma British posters feeling the need to bash and mindfuck, everything we do. "by holding up two mirrors - how Americans look at ourselves and how we look to others........hit us with a reality full of suprises, comforting and unsettling insights.....for policy makers and the rest of us to digest or pay the consequences" - Leslie H Gelb, president emeritus Council on Foreign Relations. Consider that on the whole the British perspective on the US and it's citizens is more favourable and positive than most other countries... Probably not a very popular post ... but you can't say I'm not being honest with my feelings. [;)] they are good feelings to express because they may make others explore how they view the world.

caitlyn -> RE: President Putin is building up his military (6/3/2007 2:12:25 PM)
No offense intended, but I somehow think 20+ pages of "euro-post" about our healthcare system, or the nearly monthly "American gun laws are about small a penis", has much impact on folks in Delhi. I'll stay with my first opinion, it's about drama, and nothing more. [;)]

Dtesmoac -> RE: President Putin is building up his military (6/3/2007 2:13:28 PM)
We are disliked because we are the sole superpower. Not necessarily true, it is the actions taken as the superpower.......in the recent past prior to Bush view of the US in many parts of the world was positive. The other group will hate the winner and hope for their downfall at every turn. Not when the down fall of the winner will also cause your own downfall. We won the Cold War. We won WWII and control both the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. We are the world's only superpower. We have the most powerful military on the planet. We have power and influence over every global organization. And everyone is gunning for us. People want to see the underdog win for once. A debate for another thread. There are key US international figures such as Madeline Albright that are becoming increasingly concerned at the rise of anti Americanism and anti - Americans ism. The "truths trotted out in the US for the cause are often found not to be the reasons identified actually in the places where people are loosing respect for the US. Go to detroit, think of the invincible US car industry, go to UK shipyards which once produced 75% of all shipping world wide....... understanding how others see you is important, learning from them helps keep you ahead, simply reinforcing your own beliefs in your superiority will lead to others narrowing the gap....or passing you. The "my army is bigger than yours argument" is the fall back of what sort of society?

caitlyn -> RE: President Putin is building up his military (6/3/2007 2:29:52 PM)
Well, I think we were on the side that didn't lose in the Second World War, but didn't exactly "win it." I'm not sure anyone really won that one. I think what a lot of American feel, is like the guy doing all the hard work, being criticised by the people that are sitting around drinking a cold one. It just isn't playing well over here ... you know, there is another alternative, if you don't like the way the job is being done. I also think many here feel frustrated, because the standard for a superpower is far too high, and is put there mostly by nations that had their chance, and fucked it royally. You know, we weren't left a manual, "How to be the most powerful nation since the Roman Empire", and you know what ... at times, we really are just winging it. Have you ever elected a crummy leader over there in the Sceptred Isles? I bet you didn't think he or she was crummy, when you elected them. Funny how that works ... and funnier that it happens over here too. I think maybe we should hold everyone to the same standard of hate ... as they hold us. Actually, it isn't so funny. Next time the UK elects a bad one, we will have an expectation of an immediate uprising, or we will start burning your flag on our streets. Actually, I guess you don't have the "illogical" (your words) respect for your flag, that we have over here ... so maybe we will have to do something really bad, like use our navy to restrict your access to tea. [;)]

Dtesmoac -> RE: President Putin is building up his military (6/3/2007 5:40:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Well, I think we were on the side that didn't lose in the Second World War, but didn't exactly "win it." I'm not sure anyone really won that one. - I like getting into this debate over here (US) when we've had a few drinks ...... so far I havn't been shot but I do come at it from a different angle than some Yanks :) I think what a lot of American feel, is like the guy doing all the hard work, being criticised by the people that are sitting around drinking a cold one. It just isn't playing well over here .... within the sniping is there an element of truth that can be learnt from? Look at some of the policy changes now occuring, had there been more ears listening would things be a bit different.... can we / they prevent the same mistakes again? One of the causes of "anti americanism is the told you so syndrom else where, both sides are / were at fault. Do they fall out permentantly or do they learn and change ready for next time? ... you know, there is another alternative, if you don't like the way the job is being done. .... what is the implication of an American withdrawl and isolationsism, a vaccum filled by.... China, Russia, EU, India, Iran, Regional powers ....... the great thing about when the HArd Power of the US and the Soft power of the EU are combined is that it has a "degree" of democracy, liberty, rights of the individual and the mass ... (arguable) invovled ...... with seperation of the two comes a weaker and less positive prospect...... I also think many here feel frustrated, because the standard for a superpower is far too high, ... not a superpower ........ a super power that holds up democracy, freedom, and the moral high ground as its birth right ....... have a look at the book America Against the World by Andrew Kohut and Bruce Stokes and is put there mostly by nations that had their chance, and fucked it royally yep ...... but did end slavery globally ..... established democracies in major parts of the world, and allowed the world to disintergrate in 2 world wars and watched as millions starved etc, etc, etc - no "superpower can achieve everything . You know, we weren't left a manual, "How to be the most powerful nation since the Roman Empire", and you know what ... at times, we really are just winging it. - listen twice as mch as you talk and act half as much as you talk. When a leader leads and other follow there is somthong right. When the leader leads and the followers don't follow ...... there is something wrong with your leadership ...... Have you ever elected a crummy leader over there in the Sceptred Isles? every election before and after the first election of Maggie Thatcher, ..... lol I bet you didn't think he or she was crummy, when you elected them. we only get crummy as an option. Funny how that works ... and funnier that it happens over here too. I think maybe we should hold everyone to the same standard of hate ... as they hold us. Actually, it isn't so funny. Next time the UK elects a bad one, Brown we will have an expectation of an immediate uprising, or we will start burning your flag on our streets (if there was beer invovled most Brits I know would join in we have less emotional attachment to a rag on a pole) Actually, I guess you don't have the "illogical" (your words) respect for your flag, that we have over here ... so maybe we will have to do something really bad, like use our navy to restrict your access to tea. [;)] - that would result in instantaneous all out mutual assured crying in the UK. and then we would send the Queen over to dance with George until you surrendered. ...... LOL

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