Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive?

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kyraofMists -> Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive? (5/26/2007 9:18:29 AM)
Admittedly this is something that I know very little about. I have never negotiated play; my Lord is the only person I have played with and there were no negotiations. He does what he wants, when he wants... So the art of negotiation is unknown to me. In speaking with others and reading things here on the boards, it appears as if there are at least two different approaches to negotiations. One approach seems inclusive in that what we say can be done is all that can be done and anything different has to be discussed. Another approach seems exclusive in that if you don't tell me I can't do it then that means I can decide to do it if I want to. I am sure that there are many variations in between and others that I have not even considered. How do you approach negotiations? What tips and tools have you learned over the years in negotiating play with others? Knight's kyra

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive? (5/26/2007 9:21:37 AM)
I probably suck at them also because I don't do it often- however I play with random people all the time. There have been times that I think "Oh we should have talked about that" during or after the scene, but I like to think that I have good intuition and judgement and so whenever something awkward comes up, it's not a serious issue, just something to move beyond and get on with the rest of the scene. When it comes to casual play, I say rather than be detailed, unless you've got some physical specific issue that needs to be discussed, just make it general "this type of activity is ok, but this isn't." That way you can simply avoid the sensitive areas altogether and enjoy on the happy casual playing field that you want.

jauntyone -> RE: Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive? (5/26/2007 9:28:17 AM)
Greetings Master does not negotiate with property; he does what he wants, when he wants, and how he wants. It works pretty well for me [:)] I wish you well melissa

MstrssPassion -> RE: Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive? (5/26/2007 9:30:29 AM)
When I am playing with someone I do not know, just getting to know... I will only engage in activities that we have both agreed to, or in the case of a multi-person scene, what we have all agreed to. As we proceed I will continue to introduce new things that may not have entered my mind prior to the scene but only after I for-warn others of what I intend to do & I will look to see how it was received. Then there is after scene negotiations... we talk about what was good & if we what to expand upon it or what was no good & should we go that direction again.. that is if we intend to play again. With my own submissive, one I share a relationship with we will have hours & hours & multiple planes of knowledge about one another. If they have already accepted my collar then I don't negotiate every scene & in fact, I may not even give them warning of a scene before it happens... I may just snatch them & let them figure it out as it's happening.... but this is because of the dynamic & trust we already have.

gypsygrl -> RE: Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive? (5/26/2007 9:31:34 AM)
quote: How do you approach negotiations? What tips and tools have you learned over the years in negotiating play with others? I don't really negotiate. I might quickly set some perameters and I agree to 'scenes' or the general tendency of an interaction. If the other throws a curve, and hits me with something out of nowhere, I'll question it. Depending on how well they handle that conversation, I'll decide whether or not to continue interacting with them. Basically, what I've learned is that the way someone handles things after the fact is much more important than anything that comes before.

Viridana -> RE: Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive? (5/26/2007 9:34:03 AM)
The way I do it is that I say what I absolutely don't like. example: blood, scat, urine. Hard limits, can't be broken Then I list soft limits that I'd prefer not to be done but if they are to be pushed I'd like to have a bit more control over magnitude and intensity than regularly. At least while I'm finding my comfort zone. There are a few parts of the body that are off limits and I list them Then I ask what my playpartner has in mind and if it doesn't cross my boundaries then ok. But if some comfortability boundaries are crossed then we negotiate how far to go, what we are willing to test and what not. I don't wish to control the scene, I like to be surprised. But I draw a box of boundaries and the top can do whatever he wants within that box. How ever I do want to emphasize that I'm not in a d/s dynamic. I'm a playbottom masochist only so my way of negotiating might sound a bit off for those who are in a different dynamic. But here's a view anyways if you'd like [:)]

earthycouple -> RE: Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive? (5/26/2007 9:35:22 AM)
Kyra, I simply believe in open communication at EVERY stage of our relationship. Robert gave me his list of hard limits early on in our communications and has now said he feels some could be softer now and because he knows me as he does, he is no longer afraid of those hard limits. Let's pretend Robert is clueless about knife play and says: "Knife play is a hard limit" My response is going to be "why do you feel this way?" Robert's response is "I cut myself as a child and nearly lost a finger." I say "Knife play for me is a series of small, superficial cuts that cause little bleeding and I would certainally never cut deep enough anywhere that may result in losing an appendage" Robert now says "oh, I didn't know that" I ask "do you feel this is still a hard limit?" If his answer is "yes". I drop the subject as he now has an understanding of what knife play is for me and still feels it goes against his abilities to feel safe and secure. If his answer is "no" I do a happy dance and break out the Xacto. Just kidding.... I move very slowly with this and ensure everthing regarding knife play continues to be a positive experience for him. We have just negotiated. Taking the same scenario further.... if I break out the Xacto a month later before we even start I am going to check with him to see if his thoughts have changed about this. I am going to question his ability to feel good about this. I will engage only if I feel he's ready. Suppose we do this, I make a cutting on him ( I am talking to him all the way through it to ensure he's feeling ok) and he seems to do well with it. In aftercare or at the latest within 24 hours we are going to have yet another conversation so I can gauge if this was a positive experience for him or not. I dance this dance with EVERYTHING that goes beyond "basic" for us. So we never quit negotiations. When I feel we are secure with cutting scenes then I ease up, so to speak. The most important thing I have learned is it is stupid to break toys or playmates. So I will do everything in my power to ensure I don't break Robert...in spirit, heart, mind, finances or physical ways.

mistoferin -> RE: Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive? (5/26/2007 9:37:51 AM)
I learned my style of negotiation from my first Dominant. I asked him why he was always so specific when defining the parameters of what was and was not to be allowed to other Dominants who wished to play with me in some way. His response was "Only a fool gives carte blanche permission. If I clearly define what is allowable and state that anything outside of that must be discussed before it will be allowed it reduces the likelihood that I will have to look back in regret". I have had three Dominants in my life that I have been involved with long term. Each of them shared the same philosophy and I can not imagine that I would be involved on a serious level with anyone who didn't. When I have been in relationships my Dominant was the one who was in charge of such negotiations. I am not not involved and I do play casually. I have assumed the responsibility of such negotiations and I use that same style that I have learned.

SirDominic -> RE: Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive? (5/26/2007 9:45:27 AM)
Never been into random scening, so couldn't say anything about that. Nothing wrong with it, just not my thing. The relationship between me and a sub or slave is what I want, so I go for exclusive one on one, most of the time. When starting with someone new, I have them fill out a basic questionaire of kinks stating if they love it, are embrarassed to admit they want it, would be uncomfortable doing it, or would be a hard limit. This gives me a very strong idea of where this person is willing to go at that time. That last part is important, because opinions change, feelings change, as a relationship deepens. Some things they may not have been to excited about at first, may become initriguing at a later date. Communication should be constant and ongoing. Namaste, Sir Dominic

denika -> RE: Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive? (5/26/2007 9:53:09 AM)
I'm still working on figuring out the whole negotiation thing as well. Like you, the first person I played with was Knight and there are no negotiations when we play. He decideds what he wants to do. The first time I played with someone else I had no idea I could set the rules, lol. I didn't know how it worked so I ended up pretty much controling everything in the play and that wasn't much fun. I don't play randomn people so it is not often I have to think about it, so far tho I found that telling the Top what I will NOT do and then leaving the rest to them works better than going over everything I will do and gives some of the control back to the person I am playing with. Funny enough, I have discovered I have control issues when it comes to certian things and when given the chance I will set lots of boundries and limits without even realising it and that takes away a fair bit of the spontenuity... Work in progress I guess would be the best discription. denika

ownedgirlie -> RE: Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive? (5/26/2007 10:28:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jauntyone Greetings Master does not negotiate with property; he does what he wants, when he wants, and how he wants. It works pretty well for me [:)] I wish you well melissa I will ditto this. Not only does it work well for me, I can not fathom it being any other way. Of course when I debrief/journal/report to him afterwards, I am free to share how I was effected by any and all of what occurred, and he uses that information going forward. But what he chooses is up to him. I don't think I've ever asked him to not do something. I wouldn't want to. When he has allowed others access to me, he sets the rules for that, as well. If negotiations are to be had, they are between him and the other individual. So far in all such occasions, he has been present to ensure his rules are respected.

jauntyone -> RE: Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive? (5/26/2007 12:10:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: jauntyone Greetings Master does not negotiate with property; he does what he wants, when he wants, and how he wants. It works pretty well for me [:)] I wish you well melissa I will ditto this. Not only does it work well for me, I can not fathom it being any other way. Of course when I debrief/journal/report to him afterwards, I am free to share how I was effected by any and all of what occurred, and he uses that information going forward. But what he chooses is up to him. I don't think I've ever asked him to not do something. I wouldn't want to. When he has allowed others access to me, he sets the rules for that, as well. If negotiations are to be had, they are between him and the other individual. So far in all such occasions, he has been present to ensure his rules are respected. Greetings There have been things that Master has required of me that I absolutly did not want to do, and tried everything in my power to get out of doing. It did not and does not change the outcome though; in the end, I follow orders, pure and simple. We always talk about things though. Why I do not want to do something, my feelings after, etc etc. Like I said though, it will not and does not change the outcome. In spite of my feelings, Master will still do what he wants, and what he feels to be in the best of interest of his property. I wish you well melissa

Celeste43 -> RE: Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive? (5/26/2007 2:44:48 PM)
Since he's my first d/s partner, we started excluding anything we hadn't specifically talked about. He wanted that things would end well enough that I would come back for more. And since we started as friends with an emotional investment in each other, he didn't feel any need to push to have everything right away. We were, and still are, in this for the long term. So if we don't do something this week then it doesn't matter because we can do it next week, or next year if that's how long it takes.

Archer -> RE: Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive? (5/26/2007 2:49:57 PM)
I assume that there was some level of negotiation before you reached the point of not needing further negotiations. If nothing else you did the very short negotiation along the lines of "Me Master you slave" Negotiation isn't always the comlex formal thing so many folks make it out to be. You investigate what you each are looking for and you come to an agreement. The agreement can be a long drawn out contract with pages of items discussed, or it can be as simple as the "Tarzan" model above. Depending on the scene or the relationship I will negotiate to a different level depending on what I'm looking for sometimes the negotiation comes out to not doing anything because our respective needs are not meshing. I do SM with many folks and my Sadist side can be fed with that play, I can on occassion be a "service Top" Taking them where they need to go, in a Master slave relationship I may negotiate for weeks or months before formalizing the relationship. Once the parameters have been set then the relationship actually starts. But I may be an exception to the rule here on CM in that I have several types of relationships I participate in. I am Master to Elegant, Daddy to boi Lane, and what many folks call a casual SM player. I play "casually" with many folks and it can range from single time play to regular scenes depending on the person.

jauntyone -> RE: Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive? (5/26/2007 3:06:18 PM)
Greetings Master Archer I am not sure if you were stating that towards me or not, but I will answer anyway. The only time Master ever asked for my ....let's call it permission shall we [:)] , was in the first few months of our relationship. He explained to me what EXACTLY he was looking for and then asked me if this was something I could accept and live with. With my acceptance, all pretense at negotions were gone. It truly became 'his way or the highway' and has not changed in the 4 years since. I wish you well melissa

Noah -> RE: Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive? (5/26/2007 3:11:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists Admittedly this is something that I know very little about. I have never negotiated play; my Lord is the only person I have played with and there were no negotiations. He does what he wants, when he wants... So the art of negotiation is unknown to me. In speaking with others and reading things here on the boards, it appears as if there are at least two different approaches to negotiations. One approach seems inclusive in that what we say can be done is all that can be done and anything different has to be discussed. Another approach seems exclusive in that if you don't tell me I can't do it then that means I can decide to do it if I want to. I am sure that there are many variations in between and others that I have not even considered. How do you approach negotiations? What tips and tools have you learned over the years in negotiating play with others? Knight's kyra I think it is great that this thread reveals the tremendous range in what may work for a given couple. Thanks to all. Reading the original post reminded me of a quip from a British acquaintance concerning the varying principles of law across Europe: In Germany, whatever isn't allowed is prohibited. In France, whatever isn't prohibited is allowed. In Italy, whatever is prohibited is mandatory. So what European country does your relationship most resemble?

slaverosebeauty -> RE: Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive? (5/26/2007 4:06:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists How do you approach negotiations? What tips and tools have you learned over the years in negotiating play with others? Knight's kyra I sent a copy of my MOST current play/checklist that I created, its as incluisive as I could make it so that few things are left out. Its a good place to start. Its a good place for a potential partner to see where we are alike and where we are different, how are 'apart' we are in some areas, etc. The we start the negoitations. The 'MUST haves' for each of us, 'can life with/out,' 'hard limits,' 'curious about but never tried,' etc. Its a place to start. Compermise is how adults do things, I won't just say 'any/everything goes.' {ok it does, right out the window, bye bye}Thats insane. I am NOT a doormat, so I won't act like one. Their are some things that I don't like very much, but, with the right partner they are a lot of fun or worth trying (again in some cases). Tips, be in a 'free' time where you can both speak freely and regardless what is said, nothing can be used against the other or punishable. Speak respectfully to each other, remeber htis is a relationship and it requires give and take. It won't be 50/50, thats not normal, it will balance itself out in time. Don't rush through negoiations. Time is important, especailly if this is a long term parnter/relationship; remember, you can go back in xyz amount of time and renegoitate as the relationship progresses. Nothing wrong with that. I have done it before, things that were once limits, had changed, or thing that were not limits changed to limits. Its ALL a learning process. For those who are interested in a copy of the checklist/playlist I use, please email me an I would be happy to send you a copy of my most current one.

Archer -> RE: Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive? (5/26/2007 4:27:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jauntyone Greetings Master Archer I am not sure if you were stating that towards me or not, but I will answer anyway. The only time Master ever asked for my ....let's call it permission shall we [:)] , was in the first few months of our relationship. He explained to me what EXACTLY he was looking for and then asked me if this was something I could accept and live with. With my acceptance, all pretense at negotions were gone. It truly became 'his way or the highway' and has not changed in the 4 years since. I wish you well melissa Certainly you were included in the comment but it wasn't that specificly targeted at you there were others with the same sentiment, so I was addressing the idea rather than the person. As you yourself mentioned you spoke for months learning what he expected and he asked if you could live with that. That is by definition is negotiation, it is not the same type of negotiation we usually hear about for single scenes, but it is still a form of negotiation. You had the decission to make accept or reject the offer.

thetammyjo -> RE: Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive? (5/26/2007 5:44:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists How do you approach negotiations? What tips and tools have you learned over the years in negotiating play with others? Knight's kyra I have very formal negotiations when I'm deciding on whether or not to do that first test scene with a potential trainee. It is long and it involves a lot of writing and me asking questions and listening -- I do not give out information about my own likes, dislikes, limits at this time because I learned that that actually just encourages unconscious lies from the potential. Once I've gotten the information from the potential then I share my thoughts on their list. This process takes between 2 and 4 hours. I never immediately scene after the negotiations but if we compatible we'll schedule something for a few days later. If that goes well, the I consider that information in a training contract I offer. Some things in that are negotiable like days of the week for training, modification of slave positions to fit with physical limits, but most of it is not negotiable. The only other time I negotiate is when a contract is up for renewal. Otherwise I expect us both to be mature enough to communicate honestly with each other.

PairOfDimes -> RE: Negotiations - Inclusive or Exclusive? (5/26/2007 6:00:07 PM)
I think negotiation is in general a wonderful thing, so it's no great surprise that I like to negotiate a lot in BDSM scenes, where negotiation is somewhat more accepted. It also gives me pleasure to make people vocalize what they want, so I generally find negotiation fun. I negotiate more extensively if there will be some element of the scene that would make communication difficult (sensory deprivation, deep roleplay); I negotiate less extensively if in-scene communication will be relatively easy. In negotiation, I find it very helpful to discuss both good things and bad things. In other words, discussing "limits" (don't do X) is half the negotiation; discussing desires (please do X) is just as important, possibly more so. If I've initiated the "I want to play with you tonight" conversation, I generally have an idea of what I want to do with my prospective bottom, perhaps based on observing her or him play previously, so I ask questions tailored to the kind of scene I want to do. Naturally, this can be modified according to the answers to the questions. If people proposition me, I generally ask what they want from me, because I assume that they have some idea in mind, again, perhaps because they have seen me play before and want to experience some thing that I do, or because they think I'm attractive and hope that some aspect of my play style is compatible with theirs. Oh, and I do a fair amount of casual play, and most of the above examples assume that participants have already determined that the idea of playing together is a remotely attractive one.

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