Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (Full Version)

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MzMia -> Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (5/17/2007 8:26:13 PM)

Hot off the White House Press--Comprehensive Immigration Reform
Highlights:

Fact Sheet: Border Security and Immigration Reform
On May 17, 2007, Administration Officials And A Bipartisan Group Of Senators Reached Agreement On Comprehensive Immigration Reform Legislation.  The proposal includes:
  • Putting Border Security And Enforcement First: Border security and worksite-enforcement benchmarks must be met before other elements of the proposal are implemented.

  • Providing Tools For Employers To Verify The Eligibility Of The Workers They Hire: Employers will be required to verify the work eligibility of all employees using an employment eligibility verification system, while all workers will be required to present stronger and more verifiable identification documents.  Tough new anti-fraud measures will be implemented and stiff penalties imposed on employers who break the law.

  • Creating A Temporary Worker Program: To relieve pressure on the border and provide a lawful way to meet the needs of our economy, the proposal creates a temporary worker program to fill jobs Americans are not doing. To ensure this program is truly "temporary," workers will be limited to three two-year terms, with at least a year spent outside the United States between each term.  Temporary workers will be allowed to bring immediate family members only if they have the financial ability to support them and they are covered by health insurance.

  • No Amnesty For Illegal Immigrants: Illegal immigrants who come out of the shadows will be given probationary status.  Once the border security and enforcement benchmarks are met, they must pass a background check, remain employed, maintain a clean criminal record, pay a $1,000 fine, and receive a counterfeit-proof biometric card to apply for a work visa or "Z visa."  Some years later, these Z visa holders will be eligible to apply for a green card, but only after paying an additional $4,000 fine; completing accelerated English requirements; getting in line while the current backlog clears; returning to their home country to file their green card application; and demonstrating merit under the merit-based system. 
    • Strengthening The Assimilation Of New Immigrants: The proposal declares that English is the language of the United States and calls on the United States Government to preserve and enhance it, as well as enacting accelerated English requirements for many immigrants.  In addition, the DHS Office of Citizenship will be expanded to include coordinating assimilation efforts in its mission, and the Education Secretary will make an English instruction program freely available over the Internet.

    • Establishing A Merit System For Future Immigration: The proposal establishes a new merit-based system to select future immigrants based on the skills and attributes they will bring to the United States.  Under the merit-based system, future immigrants applying for permanent residency in the U.S. will be assigned points for skills, education, and other attributes that further our national interest including: ability to speak English; level of schooling, including added points for training in science, math, and technology; job offer in a specialty or high-demand field; employer endorsement; and family ties to the U.S.

    • Ending Chain Migration: The immigration system would be reformed to better balance the importance of family connections with the economic needs of our country by replacing the current system, where nearly two-thirds of green cards are awarded to relatives of U.S. citizens, with a system in which future family immigration will focus on the nuclear family and parents.

    • Clearing The Family Backlog In Eight Years: Millions of family members of U.S. citizens now wait years in line for a green card, with some waits estimated at as long as 30 years.  Family members who have applied legally and have lawfully waited their turn in line will receive their green card within eight years.


  • Putting Border Security And Enforcement First
    Border Security And Worksite Enforcement Benchmarks Must Be Met Before A Temporary Worker Program Is Implemented.  These benchmarks include:
    • Miles of fence constructed.
    • Number of Border Patrol Agents hired.
    • "Catch and Return" continues at the border.
    • Employment Eligibility Verification System ready to process all new hires.

    The Proposal Establishes New Penalties For Border Crimes And Gives The Border Patrol Additional Tools To Stop Illegal Border Crossings.  Through the deployment of additional Border Patrol agents with supporting equipment, the construction of additional fencing and vehicle barriers in targeted areas, and the development of a proper mix of sensors, radar, and cameras, the proposal establishes a true commitment to securing our borders. 
    Providing Tools For Employers To Verify The Eligibility Of The Workers They Hire
    Employers Will Be Required To Verify The Work Eligibility Of All Employees, While All Workers Will Be Required To Present Stronger And More Verifiable Identification Documents.  Tough new anti-fraud measures will be implemented and stiff penalties imposed on employers who break the law.
    • The Employment Eligibility Verification System will allow for real-time verification of employee photos and documents.
    • The Department of Homeland Security and the Social Security Administration will be able to share "no-match" information to ensure that illegal immigrants cannot use the Social Security information of Americans to pose as legal workers.
    • Employer audits will serve as an additional check on employer compliance with the system.

    Creating A Temporary Worker Program
    To Relieve Pressure On The Border And Provide A Lawful Channel To Meet The Needs Of Our Economy, The Proposal Creates A Temporary Worker Program.  The program allows workers to enter the country to fill jobs that Americans are not doing.  The temporary worker program:
    • Protects American workers by requiring U.S. employers to advertise the job in the United States at a competitive wage before hiring a temporary worker.
    • Provides additional labor protections for temporary worker program participants.
    • Allows temporary workers to enter the United States to work for three two-year terms, with at least a year spent outside the United States between each term.
    • Sets a cap of 400,000 on the temporary worker program, which can be adjusted up or down in the future depending on demand.
    • Requires temporary workers who want to bring their immediate family to show that they have the financial means to support them and that they are covered by health insurance.
    • Recognizes the unique needs of agriculture by establishing a separate seasonal agriculture component under the temporary worker program.

    No Amnesty For Illegal Immigrants
    Illegal Immigrants Who Come Out Of The Shadows Will Be Given Probationary Status.  To maintain their probationary status, they must pass a background check, remain employed, and maintain a clean criminal record. 
    Illegal Immigrants Who Fulfill Their Probationary Requirements Can Apply For A Z Card, Which Will Enable Them To Live, Work, And Travel Freely.  Z card holders will be required to pay a $1,000 fine, meet accelerated English and civics requirements, remain employed, and renew their visa every four years.
    Z Card Holders Will Have An Opportunity To Apply For A Green Card, But Only After:
    • Paying an additional $4,000 fine,
    • Applying at the back of the line and waiting until the current backlog is cleared,
    • Returning to their home country to file their green card application, and
    • Demonstrating merit under the merit-based system.

    Strengthening The Assimilation Of New Immigrants
    The Proposal Declares That English Is The Language Of The United States And Calls On The United States Government To Preserve And Enhance It, As Well As Enacting Accelerated English Requirements For Some Immigrants.  The success of our country depends upon helping newcomers assimilate into our society and embrace our common identity as Americans – our shared ideals, an appreciation of our history, and an ability to speak and write the English language.  Therefore, the Secretary of Education is directed to make an English instruction program freely available over the Internet.  The DHS Office of Citizenship is expanded to include coordinating assimilation efforts in its mission, and additional funding is authorized for the Office.
    Establishing A Merit System For Future Immigration
    The Proposal Establishes A New Merit-Based System To Select Future Immigrants Based On The Skills And Attributes They Will Bring To The United States.  A merit system is used by many other countries.
    • Under The Merit System, Future Immigrants Applying For Permanent Residency In The United States Will Be Assigned Points For Skills, Education, Employment Background And Other Attributes That Further Our National Interest.  These skills include:
      • Ability to speak English.
      • Level of schooling, including added points for training in science, math, and technology.
      • Job offer in a high-demand field.
      • Work experience in the United States.
      • Employer endorsement.
      • Family ties to the United States.

    Ending Chain Migration
    In Place Of The Current System Where Nearly Two-Thirds Of Green Cards Are Awarded To Relatives Of U.S. Citizens, Our Immigration System Will Be Reformed To Better Balance The Importance Of Family Connections With The Economic Needs Of Our Country. 
    • Visas for parents of U.S. citizens are capped, while green cards for the siblings and adult children of U.S. citizens and green card holders are eliminated.
    • A new Parents Visitor visa is created to ensure that parents are allowed to visit their children in the United States regularly and for extended periods of time.
    • The Diversity Lottery Program, which grants 50,000 green cards per year through random chance, is ended. 
    • These rebalanced green cards are used to clear the Family Backlog in eight years and then applied to the new Merit System for future immigration once the backlog is cleared.

    Clearing The Family Backlog Within Eight Years
    Family Members Who Have Applied Legally, And Lawfully Waited Their Turn In Line, Will Receive Their Green Card Within The Next Eight Years.  Today, millions of family members of U.S. citizens wait years in line for a green card, with some waits estimated at as long as 30 years.  

  • Its getting interesting folks, lets see what happens next.

  • Discount classes starting on learning Spanish for gringo's soon!

  • Say this word 3 times---AMNESTY!!




cyberdude611 -> RE: Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (5/17/2007 8:32:41 PM)

So far:
Romney, Hunter, Tancredo, and  Fred Thompson have all released statements that blast this bill.... Guliani hasn't really said anything yet.

So it is starting to look like the battle lines are starting to be drawn on the implications of this on the 2008 elections.

McCain? He's done. There is no way in hell he will be the GOP nominee now...




selfbnd411 -> RE: Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (5/17/2007 8:42:01 PM)

It doesn't sound like amnesty at all to me.  It sounds more like a guest worker program with a path towards citizenship for the truly committed.  Citizenship is not to be granted easily--potential citizens would have to return to their home countries, pay $5000, and display progress towards Americanization though a lengthy 7-13 year long legal process.

What I see in these posts is a whole lot of uninformed reaction and not much rational thought.  Provided the terms of this program are enforced against employers, this sounds like a good plan.  You can put the Army, Navy, Marines and Air Force on the border and it won't make a damn bit of difference as long as there are jobs available.




cyberdude611 -> RE: Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (5/17/2007 8:51:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

It doesn't sound like amnesty at all to me.  It sounds more like a guest worker program with a path towards citizenship for the truly committed.  Citizenship is not to be granted easily--potential citizens would have to return to their home countries, pay $5000, and display progress towards Americanization though a lengthy 7-13 year long legal process.

What I see in these posts is a whole lot of uninformed reaction and not much rational thought.  Provided the terms of this program are enforced against employers, this sounds like a good plan.  You can put the Army, Navy, Marines and Air Force on the border and it won't make a damn bit of difference as long as there are jobs available.



Let me explain something....
These people are here illegally. Suddently you give them legal status. That's amnesty. That simple.

If I get a DUI, I have to go in front of a judge and have to probably go to jail. Even after I am out and do my time, that conviction will stay on my record forever. It will never come off.

What is happening here is you have people who broke the law. And you make them pay a fine. And then you give them legal status and basically give them a pardon. Why arn't they arrested. They broke law. Why dont they have to go in front of a judge? How is this bill fair to the millions and millions of people that want to come into America but cannot?

And no one still seems to know the cost of the program...nor does anyone know what happends to the illegals that don't follow this law. It's the status quo all over again.
This is a BAD, BAD bill....




selfbnd411 -> RE: Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (5/17/2007 9:03:57 PM)

So what did you think was going to happen?  You think the government was going to deport em all?  How exactly would that work?  Would you have the Army come through and force every individual to prove their citizenship?

Lou Dobbs is great about telling us that we have a problem.  Does he ever offer a solution?  It's easy to say "Let the crops rot...I can do without lettuce" when you know it has no chance of happening.

Visceral reactions are fine for demagogues, but they are not the stuff of public policymaking.




cyberdude611 -> RE: Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (5/17/2007 9:12:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

So what did you think was going to happen?  You think the government was going to deport em all?  How exactly would that work?  Would you have the Army come through and force every individual to prove their citizenship?

Lou Dobbs is great about telling us that we have a problem.  Does he ever offer a solution?  It's easy to say "Let the crops rot...I can do without lettuce" when you know it has no chance of happening.

Visceral reactions are fine for demagogues, but they are not the stuff of public policymaking.



I think it is pretty simple really....

What you do is secure the border... Stop the flood... And you don't do anything else until that is complete. Security of the border is the #1 priority.

Then you penalize employers that knowingly hire illegal aliens. And if needed we can look into tamper-proof identification cards and there are companies out there that say the technology is available. We also force hospitals to report when they treat illegal aliens...I'm not saying care should be refused but when treated they need to report to ICE that they have an illegal immigrant in the hospital.

We also need to eliminate the anchor baby crap. Just because you have a baby here doesn't mean you get to stay.

Soon, without the jobs and the free social services....the illegals go home on their own. And if they really wanted to become an American, they can apply for entry and citizenship through the legal channels.




farglebargle -> RE: Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (5/17/2007 9:12:49 PM)


quote:

Can Apply For A Z Card, Which Will Enable Them To Live, Work, And Travel Freely.


Welcome to the Fourth Reich.





selfbnd411 -> RE: Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (5/17/2007 9:28:29 PM)

K, what about the jobs those illegals aren't performing since they can't work anymore?  How are you going to deal with that?  I can tell you that there is no wage at which I am willing to work in a field.  It's hot, backbreaking labor.  And yes, it is beneath me.  I'm sure many on these boards will huff at that statement, but I'd bet dollars to donuts few actually would pick lettuce for a living.

But let's say for a moment that Americans are willing to work at these jobs for 50% more money than an illegal.  The average wage of a fieldworker is $9.70, so that would set the pay at $15.00/hr.  What's going to happen to the price of...everything?  How much is an apple going to cost you if labor costs go up 50%?  Your dollar value menu would go to $1.50 or $2.

Hey, how about putting prisoners to work in the fields!  Oh, but then you need to hire guards for those prisoners.  Prison guards in California make $100,000/yr.  And it's not just the fields where this labor is needed.  Are you going to trust prisoners to make your Big Macs?  Clean your apartment?  Wash your car?




cyberdude611 -> RE: Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (5/17/2007 9:38:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

K, what about the jobs those illegals aren't performing since they can't work anymore?  How are you going to deal with that?  I can tell you that there is no wage at which I am willing to work in a field.  It's hot, backbreaking labor.  And yes, it is beneath me.  I'm sure many on these boards will huff at that statement, but I'd bet dollars to donuts few actually would pick lettuce for a living.

But let's say for a moment that Americans are willing to work at these jobs for 50% more money than an illegal.  The average wage of a fieldworker is $9.70, so that would set the pay at $15.00/hr.  What's going to happen to the price of...everything?  How much is an apple going to cost you if labor costs go up 50%?  Your dollar value menu would go to $1.50 or $2.

Hey, how about putting prisoners to work in the fields!  Oh, but then you need to hire guards for those prisoners.  Prison guards in California make $100,000/yr.  And it's not just the fields where this labor is needed.  Are you going to trust prisoners to make your Big Macs?  Clean your apartment?  Wash your car?



I never said we should stop all immigtration. I want legal immigration. It is the illegal immigration I want stopped.

You seem to support the idea of keeping a slave labor class in order to keep your dollar menu and your hotel rooms cheap.




Real0ne -> RE: Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (5/17/2007 9:40:47 PM)

i think the real problem is that it takes jobs away from our kids, possibly with exception to a few like field work etc that you couldnt get an american kid to do they were starving.


oh yeh and there is no way in hell they can police it







MzMia -> RE: Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (5/17/2007 9:54:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

i think the real problem is that it takes jobs away from our kids, possibly with exception to a few like field work etc that you couldnt get an american kid to do they were starving.


oh yeh and there is no way in hell they can police it



I agree, I don't see any damn way we are in a position to enforce/police this bill.
It smells to me, like an on paper, slight slap on the wrist, really doing next to nothing,
proposal.




cyberdude611 -> RE: Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (5/17/2007 9:59:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

i think the real problem is that it takes jobs away from our kids, possibly with exception to a few like field work etc that you couldnt get an american kid to do they were starving.


oh yeh and there is no way in hell they can police it



I agree, I don't see any damn way we are in a position to enforce/police this bill.
It smells to me, like an on paper, slight slap on the wrist, really doing next to nothing,
proposal.


Most people also dont have $5,000 just lying around....especially illegal immigrants. So that idea of a punishment is kind of stupid. Most just are not going to bother with it and will stay in the shadows.

I mean it is almost like putting American Citizenship on sale... What's next? Is the government going to put it on Ebay? Pay $5,000 and get to be an American citizen!




selfbnd411 -> RE: Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (5/17/2007 10:02:15 PM)

Nah, I'm just pointing out that nothing is as simple as demagogues make it appear.  "Kick em all out" has consequences just as letting them all come in has consequences.  "Raise the pay and Americans will do the jobs" has consequences.  Some may be good, some bad.  In this respect Dobbs is as bad as Bush was on Iraq--unintended consequences result when we take complicated issues and try to turn them into simple matters such as "good versus bad."




Sinergy -> RE: Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (5/17/2007 10:09:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

If needed we can look into tamper-proof identification cards and there are companies out there that say the technology is available.



They have been talking about using TWIC (tamper-proof identification cards for Transportation Worker Identification Card) cards in the harbor to prove longshoremen have the the right to be in there.

It is about 3-4 years now.  The problem with biometrics is it is a technically complex methodology, and one that probably wont survive salt water, longshoremen, pollution, storms, baking sun, etc.

They want to make people who pick strawberries do this?  It is a lovely idea, but it lacks a sort any possibility of actually working in the Real World.

But people like to glom on to the "ooo, great idea, vote Republican" and not bother to research the subject.

Sinergy




farglebargle -> RE: Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (5/17/2007 10:22:44 PM)

What one person can encrypt, or physically obstruct, another can decrypt, or enable.

If there is *ANY* sort of financial benefit to be gained by circumventing a security system, it certainly WILL be circumvented.

Period.




Sinergy -> RE: Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (5/17/2007 10:30:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

What one person can encrypt, or physically obstruct, another can decrypt, or enable.

If there is *ANY* sort of financial benefit to be gained by circumventing a security system, it certainly WILL be circumvented.

Period.


My point was that Mother Nature will break the system within 24 hours of it being installed and implemented.

It will take weeks to replace.  Meanwhile, they either let people in to pick the strawberries or they will all die on the vine.

Sinergy




popeye1250 -> RE: Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (5/17/2007 10:47:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

K, what about the jobs those illegals aren't performing since they can't work anymore?  How are you going to deal with that?  I can tell you that there is no wage at which I am willing to work in a field.  It's hot, backbreaking labor.  And yes, it is beneath me.  I'm sure many on these boards will huff at that statement, but I'd bet dollars to donuts few actually would pick lettuce for a living.

But let's say for a moment that Americans are willing to work at these jobs for 50% more money than an illegal.  The average wage of a fieldworker is $9.70, so that would set the pay at $15.00/hr.  What's going to happen to the price of...everything?  How much is an apple going to cost you if labor costs go up 50%?  Your dollar value menu would go to $1.50 or $2.

Hey, how about putting prisoners to work in the fields!  Oh, but then you need to hire guards for those prisoners.  Prison guards in California make $100,000/yr.  And it's not just the fields where this labor is needed.  Are you going to trust prisoners to make your Big Macs?  Clean your apartment?  Wash your car?



Selfbnd, labor only accounts for 8% of the price of produce.
Let's take the proverbial head of lettuce that goes for $1.49 say.
If you extrapilate your figures you'd be talking what...$1.65 or there abouts? Even if it were $1.85 a head would that stop you from buying it?
And just how many field workers do we actually "need" anyway?
Everything I've read says about 400,000, certainly not 5 million!
Farmers are business people too and they're making strides every year in automation just like any other production business.
As for *sealing* that Mexican border we currently have S. Korea's border so air-tight sealed that a mouse can't get accross it at 0300 without them knowing about it. So it can be done!
And if we need *cheap* labor we can get all we need from China at one quarter of the price we can from Mexico.
Let them come over for two years work and go home "rich."
This whole thing that they're trying to shove down the throats of the American People could never work anyway.
I mean they'd need 5 million people just to Administer it!
Managers, Armies of secretaries, a million or so Investigators to check backgrounds, etc etc etc.
Then the infrastructure-buildings, vehicles etc that all those people would need!  Pay, benefits packages!
You're talking a Trillion dollars and that's if they do it "right" which we all know they won't!
And they'd need infrastructure and people in every single state! Probably 100,000 in N.Y. 400,000 in Calif and of course all those new beaurocrats in D.C.
And, they said it's for "12 million people" not the realistically 20-30 million people in this country illegally which most studies estimate!
Even the Wall Street Journal admitted that there's "probably" in excess of 23 million people in the U.S. illegally.
Of course we haven't heard anything about how they plan to PAY for all this. I heard a quote of $2.4 TRILLION on CNN tonight.
And at the head of it we have a senator who's mind is addled from decades of alcoholism who thinks it's a good idea and a president who is nothing more than a mouthpiece for big corporations.
Anytime our govt tries to get us involved in these major programs it ends up hurting The People!
Anytime they try to shove something down the throats of The People you can be assured it's no good for us and very good for big business!

And with all the immigration laws on the books now that they're not enforcing somehow this is going to be "different?"
Are they going to "Pinky Promise" to enforce these new laws?




cyberdude611 -> RE: Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (5/17/2007 10:48:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

What one person can encrypt, or physically obstruct, another can decrypt, or enable.

If there is *ANY* sort of financial benefit to be gained by circumventing a security system, it certainly WILL be circumvented.

Period.


My point was that Mother Nature will break the system within 24 hours of it being installed and implemented.

It will take weeks to replace.  Meanwhile, they either let people in to pick the strawberries or they will all die on the vine.

Sinergy


And I suppose when we make those field workers legal that they are going to continue picking those strawberries?

Part of the reason they do those jobs is not about money, it's because they are illegal aliens and it is the only jobs they can get. You suddenly make them legal and they become elegible for the same jobs you and I do.

This is a really serious problem in this country.




popeye1250 -> RE: Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (5/17/2007 11:03:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

What one person can encrypt, or physically obstruct, another can decrypt, or enable.

If there is *ANY* sort of financial benefit to be gained by circumventing a security system, it certainly WILL be circumvented.

Period.


Two words, "Fort Knox."




Sinergy -> RE: Proposed Immigration Reform Bill-May 17, 2007 (5/17/2007 11:18:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

And I suppose when we make those field workers legal that they are going to continue picking those strawberries?

Part of the reason they do those jobs is not about money, it's because they are illegal aliens and it is the only jobs they can get. You suddenly make them legal and they become elegible for the same jobs you and I do.

This is a really serious problem in this country.


I agree with you.

I simply think the Idiotocracy's solution to the problem is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,

signifying nothing.

Sinergy




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