RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (Full Version)

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leakylee -> RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (5/10/2007 9:00:29 PM)

i thought getting your mind ripped open was part of basic training. my last owner moved in, stripped me mentally, rearragned and commensed to reprogramming. isnt that thier disretion? we dont say owner for no reason..

lee

edited cuz i cant spell worth a dern tonight 



MasterMagnus321 -> RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (5/10/2007 9:27:00 PM)

I agree with the quote in Outlier's response; changes that can take place are changes that basically need to take place, but a single person has been unable to bring them to fruition in him or herself, alone... I deeply treasure experiences where changes have occured resulting in the sub realizing, "I can't, but W/we can..."  I don't know if that experience is more deeply rewarding for the Dom or the sub... maybe it is mutually delicious, and that is what makes O/our lifestyle so fulfilling and precious for all seriously, honestly, and totally committed to it... for YEARS I struggled with the question, "Is deep intrinsic change really possible in a human, or is the best we can hope for is pretending, very well,  to be someone or something W/we are not?"  My experiences have shown me that those deep kinds of psychic changes are possible, albeit very rare, which accounts for the precious wonder in which they are to be held... two subjects warranting further investigation are "Rational-Emotive Behavior Therapy," and (even better, I think) "Cognitive Behavior Therapy."



Padriag -> RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (5/11/2007 8:04:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

So a rather interesting thread got my mind brewing on a topic for discussion.

As a Dominant/Master, what aspects of your partner do you feal you can change?

Regarding behavior, anything, given time and sufficient control of the environment.

quote:

Where do you feal the line is drawn between what you CAN change and CAN'T?

That's really only limited by my ability to effect change.

quote:

Where do you feal the line is drawn between what you WILL change and WONT change out of fear of loss of sense of self/identity?

Where the line is drawn has more to do, in my case, with what I'm willing to change, what things I'm not willing to "deal" with, ethical questions, personal goals, etc.



Padriag -> RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (5/11/2007 8:27:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Which is a very brilliant way of saying the human beings are constantly learning and forgetting and if you can control what they learn, then eventually all their old knowledge will be replaced by new. However, human deaths makes complete change impossible since they will die before they can forget and relearn...unless started at near birth. (This is why I say we arent Gods).

The problem with this is that I've yet to see a behavior that required that much time to change.  Part of the premise of CuriousLs statement is flawed... one does not need to "forget" a past behavior in order to change it.  We can easily demonstrate this with a simple exercise.  Think of something, a habit or activity, you used to do but no longer engage in (a change in behavior). and there you have an easy example of a behavior that has changed, even though the past behavior is still remembered.

quote:

I'll exclude the notion that free will governs change...that even if you control the input, the decision rests on the individual to "input" it or reject it since you have made it clear that as an Athiest, you dont agree with the philosophical belief in will.

Religious beliefs have nothing to do with it.  Read "Beyond Freedom and Dignity" by B F Skinner if you want a good case for just how little free will anyone has.

quote:

Forget that some psychologists beleive that people are just simply born the way they are. For example, I've read a number of articles that state that sociopaths are simily born sociopathic and will be sociopaths until the day they die, regarldess of any treatment or "control of the input."

Read what articles, by whom, and had these "theories" been vetted?  What was their foundation or logic.  I could say I have read an article that theorizes the moon has a liquid magma nickel-iron core... but that proves nothing.  Those who know a bit about the science might very quickly raise an eyebrow at such a statement because current known facts indicate that the moon does not have a liquid magma core, and without some supporting facts, such a theory is baseless speculation.  The same is true of "theories" stating that sociopaths are simply born sociopaths... with no explanation.  That's bad science, its basically someone saying, "Well, I don't actually know why that person turned out to be a sociopath, but since I'm afraid I'll look like an idiot if I just say that, I'll blame it on something most people will find believeable... and since genetics is such a fad right now, hey... they had the sociopath gene, that's its, yeah."  Bad science.

quote:

What do you feal is ethical in your modifications?

That which does not harm the person.  I could make almost anyone into a "slave" by simply systematically destroying their self esteem until I had reduced them to the point they no longer had any faith in themselves, no confidence in their own ability at all.  At that point I would have created a person who was utterly dependant on me and would be extremely pliable.  But, in the process I would have "destroyed" the person, and I consider that unethical.  Besides which such a person would not be attractive to me.  I like a bit more confidence than that.

quote:

I feal an ethical responsibility to influence someone to change for the better of themselves as opposed to solely my wants and needs. If dominance is about authority and control, then why does it exclusively have to be used for your individual wants and needs.

I agree with the first part, but not the second.  I see no ethical problem changing a slave to suit my desires or wants, provided that change does not violate my first rule of doing no harm.  If I want a slave to, for a simple example, stop wearing pants and only wear skirts.  This change does not better the slave as a person, neither does it harm them... its solely for my pleasure, to please me.  I might require a change in other behaviors, such as kneeling next to me at home... again, this does not "better" them as a person, its done chiefly to please me.  But neither of these examples "harms" the slave as a person, so I see no problem with it.

quote:

I wont try to change someone into being compleletely dependant upon me and interfere with their ability to function as an independent adult should something happen to me. In fact, it would be my goal that they are ultimately a stronger and more independent person.

See my above remarks about destroying self esteem.

quote:

Sure, I have a handful of behaviors and protocols that I prefer...but they would only encompass a small part of a person's identity.

So you do change some things solely because its what you want.



KnightofMists -> RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (5/11/2007 8:34:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

As a Dominant/Master, what aspects of your partner do you feal you can change?

Where do you feal the line is drawn between what you CAN change and CAN'T?

Where do you feal the line is drawn between what you WILL change and WONT change out of fear of loss of sense of self/identity?



I think I can change any behavior of my partners in which I possess the ability or can learn the ability to change.

The line is drawn on what I want to change or don't want to change.  The reasons to change or not to change will be for various reasons.



Padriag -> RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (5/11/2007 8:39:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I'm a firm believer that people can change, but I don't believe that you can change people. The motivation for change is something that comes from within. I may indeed change because of the influence or teachings of another....but it's something that happens on an internal level first.

Actually, the motivation for a great many things is external.  Which is why so much money is spent on advertising.  Often that internal change is the last change to take place.

For example... smoking.  A smoker is told for years they should stop smoking by friends, family, commercials, doctors, etc. (external influence).  At some point the smoker finally agrees (internal change), and the change finally occurs.  What is happening in Behavioral terms is a process of punishment and extinction, where the factor reinforcing the behavior to be changed cannot be removed (nicotine addiction), but can be overcome by conflicting reinforcers (external influences) for a different behavior (not smoking in this case).  The fact that such a change often takes years to actually occur indicates how strong the addiction is compared to other reinforcers (such as family approval).

Changes in behavior are actually nearly instantaneous... getting the person to the point of that change is what generally consumes the most time.  This is because in many cases we cannot easily remove all the reinforcers for the behavior we wish to change, so we must deal with the situation of establishing a new behavior which is in fact a competing behavior.  In order for this to be successful we must establish reinforcers for the competing behavior that are ultimately more rewarding that those of the original behavior, and/or arrange punishers for the original behavior that minimize the still existant reinforcers for that behavior.  The moment of change occurs when the reinforcers of the desired behavior finally overcome those of the undesired behavior and the person internally chooses to accept the change.



Padriag -> RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (5/11/2007 8:46:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eruditegirl

I would want my partner to help me grow...embellish what is already within me..but to change me....I am not sure I would be comfortable changing me....I like me just the way I am...it took me 42 years to become me today...and damn it...I like me...

Your statement interests me because its an expression of a very common fear... that of change.  Most people fear change of almost any kind, and yet ironically enough desire it.  Consider this, in your statement above you express a desire for growth and "embellishment"... yet if you stop to consider it, when reduced to their essence, both these words mean changes, on some level you desire a degree of change.  Yet immediately following that you express a fear of change.  Not criticizing you, just pointing out something worth considering.



astarri -> RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (5/11/2007 8:49:54 AM)

i will allow any aspect that i do not like about me to be changed; however, i would not change something about me that i cherish within myself. For example i was once speaking to someone who only wanted me to speak when spoken to and to only display characteristics of being demure .... which sounds lovely and i tried but i was miserable... i love the playful side of me and i could not let that go.
I would change my dress or eating habits or bedtime but will not change part of me that i love.



yrstocollar -> RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (5/11/2007 8:52:41 AM)

You can't really change a person's personality - this is pretty fully formed by the time you're 21.

Behaviour, you can change, but as several people have pointed out it really does have to come from within... sure you can help change someone's behaviour but if they don't at some point decide that they want to make the change as well, this behaviour will revert once you're no longer around.

Re motivation... I'll go one step further and say that motivation is not just having the desire to change, but also having the confidence. According to theory, if you make a scale out of 10 on two axes... one for desire (how much you want to change - not someone else) and one for confidence (how strongly you believe in yourself that you can make the change)... and you score 8/10 or more on both axes you will make the change. There are specific ways to bring lower scores up to the 8 or above mark in order to help someone change but at the end of the day, they have to be the one to do it.

Re your original question... what if you 'change' someone so much they're not the person you were attracted to in the first place?



Padriag -> RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (5/11/2007 9:03:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yrstocollar

You can't really change a person's personality - this is pretty fully formed by the time you're 21.

Sure you can.  Consider what "personality" is... behavior.  If we say someone has a cheerful or a sad personality, we are really describing behavior.  If we say someone is generous as a personality trait, again, we are actually describing behavior.  BTW, most psychologist would suggest personality is fully formed at a much younger age.  Adler suggested the age of six.

quote:

Behaviour, you can change, but as several people have pointed out it really does have to come from within... sure you can help change someone's behaviour but if they don't at some point decide that they want to make the change as well, this behaviour will revert once you're no longer around.

That presumes that the only thing reinforcing the change in behavior was a specific individual.  However, if we arrange other reinforcers for the behavior that are not dependant on any single individual (that is, we generalize them), then the behavior will continue to be reinforced and thus will continue indefinitely.  The reality is, if the behavior changed, then the person did decide to change it.  If they changed it to please a specific individual, and then revert to a previous behavior when that person is absent, they are change not because of any internal "Will", but purely in response to external influences. 



MsOpal -> RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (5/11/2007 9:28:51 AM)

Oh hell, why not jump in....

Science says basic personality is in place by the time a human is 5 years old.  That's pretty young.  I know about repetitive behavior and behavior modification and brainwashing, but does it really get in and change the personality or does it teach different/modified reactions?

I have a bad temper.  It takes me a long time to get really angry , not mad at a guy who cuts me off in traffic, but seeing red thunder in my head furious angry, but it has happened and if it does I tend to pertty loud and pretty physical - as in throwing things, breaking things, I feel a need to get the anger out physically (thank goodness I never have ever aimed it at a persom but at objects).  This is a pretty negative trait and after thinkang about it many many years I think it came from being told to never get mad at anyone, not to let things make me mad (thanks mom) just suck it up and let it go.  I think for me after a while I can't suck it up any more. However, knowing it was a bad trait and quite possibly a dangerous on as well, and knowing that my then husband really did not like it at all (happened twice in 10 years, but it wasn't pretty) I decided to change it.  I still get mad, I cannot change my gut reactions to things but what I can and did change was how I reacted and over time I have modified that behavior enough so that as long as I remain aware of the possibility I can head it off at the pass.  After another 15+ years with only 1 "close call" I may have it beat, but like someone who is in AA, I must never forget it's there.

So, I do not believe that my inner core temper was erased, but I believe that I learned to modify how it effects me and how I react to it.



yrstocollar -> RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (5/11/2007 10:45:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: yrstocollar

You can't really change a person's personality - this is pretty fully formed by the time you're 21.

Sure you can.  Consider what "personality" is... behavior.

Hmmm... not really... your behaviour certainly reflects your personality (eg MsOpal may have a lower threshold for anger = personality) but behaviour is more made up of a combination of early life experiences and learned reactions to these (eg learning how to control this anger appropriately = behaviour)...
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
If we say someone has a cheerful or a sad personality, we are really describing behavior.  If we say someone is generous as a personality trait, again, we are actually describing behavior. 

It's just the behaviour is easier to identify really...
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
BTW, most psychologist would suggest personality is fully formed at a much younger age.  Adler suggested the age of six.

True that... I was more suggesting that in terms of normal human development, you're still developing your personality more fully as a teenager - particularly your identity. You're right of course, the bare bones so to speak of the personality is formed by this stage but we have so much developing in those other years which play an intrinsic role in how you are as a person. And of course you can't be diagnosed with a personality disorder until at least 16... with most reputable psych's waiting til 21 when it's clear the personality isn't going to change.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
quote:

Behaviour, you can change, but as several people have pointed out it really does have to come from within... sure you can help change someone's behaviour but if they don't at some point decide that they want to make the change as well, this behaviour will revert once you're no longer around.

That presumes that the only thing reinforcing the change in behavior was a specific individual.  However, if we arrange other reinforcers for the behavior that are not dependant on any single individual (that is, we generalize them), then the behavior will continue to be reinforced and thus will continue indefinitely.  The reality is, if the behavior changed, then the person did decide to change it.  If they changed it to please a specific individual, and then revert to a previous behavior when that person is absent, they are change not because of any internal "Will", but purely in response to external influences. 


Yeah that's what I was saying... if it is only coming from outside the person and not inside then it's not a real change... if they only do it because someone is around then they haven't changed it for good... for example I don't smoke around my mother but that doesn't mean I've quit smoking.

Thanks for some interesting discourse!



Padriag -> RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (5/11/2007 11:24:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsOpal

Oh hell, why not jump in....

Indeed, why not? [;)]

quote:

Science says basic personality is in place by the time a human is 5 years old.  That's pretty young.  I know about repetitive behavior and behavior modification and brainwashing, but does it really get in and change the personality or does it teach different/modified reactions?

I understand your point, but I disagree.  A reaction or a response is a behavior, it may be an unconscious behavior, but its still a behavior.  For your point to be valid, you have to demonstrate a case of a behavior that cannot under any circumstance be modified, I've yet to see such an example, hence my disagreement.  I'll take your example below as a case in point.

quote:

I have a bad temper.  It takes me a long time to get really angry , not mad at a guy who cuts me off in traffic, but seeing red thunder in my head furious angry, but it has happened and if it does I tend to pertty loud and pretty physical - as in throwing things, breaking things, I feel a need to get the anger out physically (thank goodness I never have ever aimed it at a persom but at objects).

So you get angry, that's a natural reaction in some cases.  What I hear you saying however is that you feel the level of anger is inappropriate in some circumstances.  I also hear you saying that your reaction to the anger is inappropriate in some cases.  Correct?

We seem to agree that your reaction to the anger is a behavior that can be (and in your case has been) modified.  Where we disagree then is whether or not when you feel angry and to what degree, can that be modified.  Correct?

What I assert, based in part of the work of B F Skinner who made a very good case for emotional response being just another form of behavior, that as such even our emotional responses can be modified.  That these too are just another form of behavior we have learned, not some "innate" personality that can never be changed.  That's not to say that it would be easily done, or that how to do so would be obvious.  In your case, I would attribute it more to a lack of knowing how to modify your own response than an inability to do so.  I suspect, that were you to learn how to effect that change, you could do so yourself, based on what you have said.

quote:

 
After another 15+ years with only 1 "close call" I may have it beat, but like someone who is in AA, I must never forget it's there.

And this is one of my chief disagreements with the various AA type programs, they never actually deal with the root cause of the problem, only its symptom.  In the case of alcoholism, the so-called "disease" is nothing more than a coping behavior which is symptomatic of a deeper problem.  The reason that "disease" never goes away for them is because the root cause was never treated. 

quote:

So, I do not believe that my inner core temper was erased, but I believe that I learned to modify how it effects me and how I react to it.

I do agree in your case it has not been changed.  I still believe, however, that with guidance it could potentially be changed.



Padriag -> RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (5/11/2007 11:41:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yrstocollar

Hmmm... not really... your behaviour certainly reflects your personality (eg MsOpal may have a lower threshold for anger = personality) but behaviour is more made up of a combination of early life experiences and learned reactions to these (eg learning how to control this anger appropriately = behaviour)...

The problem here is you are stating personality is separate from behavior, yet what we don't have is a common definition of what constitutes "personality".  If you could provide that, it would help make this discussion more productive.

For myself, I see personality as being another facet of behavior, or rather that what is commonly thought of as personality is really a grouping of behavioral patterns in a recognizable form.  Clearly you believe otherwise, but without some clear definition on your part of what does constitute "personality" as a distinct function, we'll just go in circles with this.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
BTW, most psychologist would suggest personality is fully formed at a much younger age.  Adler suggested the age of six.

True that... I was more suggesting that in terms of normal human development, you're still developing your personality more fully as a teenager - particularly your identity. You're right of course, the bare bones so to speak of the personality is formed by this stage but we have so much developing in those other years which play an intrinsic role in how you are as a person. And of course you can't be diagnosed with a personality disorder until at least 16... with most reputable psych's waiting til 21 when it's clear the personality isn't going to change.

Heh, what's normal in human development these days?  BTW, the reason most personality disorders aren't diagnosed before 16 has more to do with legal matters than practical application of psychology.  The reality is we can often identify problem behavior much earlier, and you don't even have to be a psychologist to do it.  If little Henry likes burying cats up to their necks and then running over them with a law mower... I think just about anyone would see that as a problem at any age (actually came across a case of a kid who actually did do that... though his name wasn't Henry).

quote:

  
Yeah that's what I was saying... if it is only coming from outside the person and not inside then it's not a real change... if they only do it because someone is around then they haven't changed it for good... for example I don't smoke around my mother but that doesn't mean I've quit smoking.

Here's where I think we still may not be on the same page.  You still see it as being a choice that comes entirely within you.  What I'm saying is the motive for that choice often comes from external sources.  That your choice itself is a response to external reinforcers, and thus is just another behavior that can be modified.  If your only external motivation was not to smoke around your mother, then not surprisingly that would be the most likely resulting behavior.  But in Behaviorism there is something called Generalization.  Suppose the external motivation not to smoke was generalized so that you always felt that reinforcer, whether around your mother or not?  Then the most likely resulting behavior is that you stop smoking.  How likely that is to happen is a function of how strong the motivation is not to smoke versus the motivation to smoke, the stronger motivation wins and the behavior it reinforces results.  Julian B Rotter dealt with this "equation" quite a bit in some of his work. 

quote:

Thanks for some interesting discourse!

Likewise, and welcome. [:)]



ExSteelAgain -> RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (5/11/2007 11:43:49 AM)

I like what Homer Simpson said. Every leader is part B.F. Skinner and part P.T. Barnum. He really said that.



Celeste43 -> RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (5/11/2007 1:33:01 PM)

He can change my habits but a learning curve is required. He may not attempt to alter my values or morals.



yrstocollar -> RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (5/11/2007 1:34:33 PM)

Padriag... I'm desperate to continue debating this with you... it's fascinating and informative but I feel like we might just go round in circles and bore the pants off people... plus we've strayed alot from the original post...

Before I let go though (and I can be very bad at doing that when my interest has been piqued) I have to admit I can't come up with a definition of personality at this stage - it's been far too long since I've actually studied it to be able to throw in theories and names with any accuracy so I won't insult you with that.

I do however know HEAPS about motivation and behaviour... how to increase motivation (do a cost/benefit analysis of the good and bad things about the behaviour and the good and bad things about change - using Motivational Interviewing techniques to optimise your results)... how to increase confidence in change (teach skills, increase knowledge, practise and support) the stages of change (precontemplation, contemplation, determination, action, maintenance - including lapse and relapse - Prochaska and DiClementa - although I may have spelt that wrong)... how to effect behaviour change and how to sustain behaviour change etc. etc. etc.

Not setting myself up as an expert here at all... Only saying that in my experience and not from a theoretical standpoint (although my practise comes from solid theory too) you can't effectively change someone's behaviour unless they want to change it. You can help them want to change it, you can help them change it, you can help them prevent relapse, but you can't make them change it unless they actually want to and believe they can.



agirl -> RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (5/11/2007 2:03:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

So a rather interesting thread got my mind brewing on a topic for discussion.

As a submissive/slave, what are you WILLING to let your partner change about you and WONT let your partner change about you?
I don't *let* him. He either can or he can't.  If he wants me to change a certain behaviour, he begins a process which can, and has changed it. But I'm receptive to it, and him. I think that process changes me as a person, too, however small a change it may be.  Having said that, he sincerely wouldn't have bothered with me if he didn't like what he was *buying*. And vice versa.

What do you feal CAN and CAN'T be changed about you?
I can't be sure; there are many places we haven't been yet. I think he COULD change a great deal about me, in terms of behaviour and I don't even rule out a change in values....I obtained them by influence, education and thought........all of which still take place, so he could influence those too.  Each small thing he changes makes me a marginally different person. I'm not the same girl that he met many moons ago because of those changes.


The questions might seem similar, but I stress the difference between the choice of words.

Can not implies impossibility or outside the scope of our ability. We're not gods who can rewrire human beings into our own image.

Will not implies its possible, but not done because of your own personal ethics/morals.


agirl





Griswold -> RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (5/11/2007 4:37:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

So a rather interesting thread got my mind brewing on a topic for discussion.

As a Dominant/Master, what aspects of your partner do you feal you can change?

Where do you feal the line is drawn between what you CAN change and CAN'T?

Where do you feal the line is drawn between what you WILL change and WONT change out of fear of loss of sense of self/identity?

Of course, the flip side of this....

As a submissive/slave, what are you WILLING to let your partner change about you and WONT let your partner change about you?

What do you feal CAN and CAN'T be changed about you?

The questions might seem similar, but I stress the difference between the choice of words.

Can not implies impossibility or outside the scope of our ability. We're not gods who can rewrire human beings into our own image.

Will not implies its possible, but not done because of your own personal ethics/morals.


I "feal" incapable of responding to you.



MadRabbit -> RE: Personality and Behavior Modification (5/11/2007 5:02:48 PM)

Thanks to everyone who posted here, especially Padriag. This has turned out to be more informative and interesting then I could have hoped.

quote:


quote:

What do you feal is ethical in your modifications?

That which does not harm the person.  I could make almost anyone into a "slave" by simply systematically destroying their self esteem until I had reduced them to the point they no longer had any faith in themselves, no confidence in their own ability at all.  At that point I would have created a person who was utterly dependant on me and would be extremely pliable.  But, in the process I would have "destroyed" the person, and I consider that unethical.  Besides which such a person would not be attractive to me.  I like a bit more confidence than that.

quote:

I feal an ethical responsibility to influence someone to change for the better of themselves as opposed to solely my wants and needs. If dominance is about authority and control, then why does it exclusively have to be used for your individual wants and needs.

I agree with the first part, but not the second.  I see no ethical problem changing a slave to suit my desires or wants, provided that change does not violate my first rule of doing no harm.  If I want a slave to, for a simple example, stop wearing pants and only wear skirts.  This change does not better the slave as a person, neither does it harm them... its solely for my pleasure, to please me.  I might require a change in other behaviors, such as kneeling next to me at home... again, this does not "better" them as a person, its done chiefly to please me.  But neither of these examples "harms" the slave as a person, so I see no problem with it.

quote:

I wont try to change someone into being compleletely dependant upon me and interfere with their ability to function as an independent adult should something happen to me. In fact, it would be my goal that they are ultimately a stronger and more independent person.

See my above remarks about destroying self esteem.

quote:

Sure, I have a handful of behaviors and protocols that I prefer...but they would only encompass a small part of a person's identity.

So you do change some things solely because its what you want.


Just for clarification...I wasnt trying to take a hardline stance that it wasnt ethical to change someone solely because you want to. Its more where the line is draw on an ethical level.



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