The Answer May Be Very Simple (Full Version)

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Satyr6406 -> The Answer May Be Very Simple (5/7/2007 11:31:23 PM)

I have been thinking about something, for quite a while now.
 
I think it's no secret that race relations, in this country (The United States) are at a twenty-year low; maybe even longer. I also think it's fairly plain that the widest chasm is between the white and black communities. We've had so many issues, over the last few years; some legitimate and some that don't even pass the giggle test.
 
Part of this is because we've become a society of victims, looking to sue anyone that "does us harm". We've become so damned over-sensitive to the stupidest things that it disheartens me. Gone is the spirit of "can do", replaced by the spirit of "you don't respect me" or "I have a right to free speech" or "he looked at my ass, while at work. I've been injured."
 
ENOUGH!!!!
 
Now, I try to never be a person that just points out problems without, at least, giving my recommendations for the solution so, while this may seem almost child-like in its simplicity, I can't help but wonder if this might not work.
 
I am quite sure that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US knows, at least one person whose background is of another ethnicity than our own who is a good person.
 
If we can agree upon that, keep reading. If we can't, goodbye.
 
What we need, here, people is a "grass-roots" movement. You know, like the ones that were so popular in the 90s? I need you to reach out to these people and introduce them to your "non-ethnic friends" as "one of the good guys/ladies". Get to know about each other's culture. Celebrate the differences, but while you're doing that, try to accentuate the similarities.
 
You see, instead of slipping down into the negativity, we can look at the positives and, maybe, make things a bit more productive.
 
With very few exceptions; we ALL want to have a happy life; we ALL want to live in peace and security; we ALL want our children to have better than we did; we ALL want to "coast through life" (to a degree), knowing that we hurt as few people as possible and did what we could to make our world a better place for our children.
 
While we're on the subject of children: they don't arrive in this world with inherent hate/social slant/what have you. THEY LEARN THAT FROM US!!!! If my children hate, it's because I taught them to. Damn the excuses of: "It's the other kids at their school" etc. with very few exceptions, until their teen years, we are the most important influence on them. This is where a lot of us fall down. No more teaching our children: "Well, they're really horrible people but, don't say that, in public."
 
Now, even though I've made the case for needing to grow a thicker skin, there's another "prong" to this plan ...
 
We need to have one set of rules for everyone to follow. If it's an issue for me to refer to a nine year old male child as "a cute boy" just because his heritage is originally from Africa then it is an issue for me, an almost 43 year old man who has served his country, raised children, and has enough arthritis to make life a bit painful, to be referred to as a "white boy" by anyone. Either words are offensive or they aren't. No double standards.
 
Lastly, we need to decide if we really want to make things better or if we are interested in maintaining the status quo so that we can continue to self-victimize and perpetuate hate.
 
 
 
 
 
Peace and comfort,
 
 
 
 
 
Michael

(Edited because I need to remember to use the "spell check button BEFORE I hit the "OK" button)



Sinergy -> RE: The Answer May Be Very Simple (5/7/2007 11:46:11 PM)

 

So there I am at the casual hall playing Spades with Chamuco, Big Pimp, and Junior.

Chamuco is an ex-marine with "Hecho en Mexico" tattooed on his arm.  I do not recall a person who laughs more than he does.  He continually borrows my books on particle physics, chaos theory, and anthropology while we are unloading steel ships.   I often have to buy other books to keep up with him when we talk about them.

Big Pimp is a huge ex-gang-banger Samoan with gang tattoos all over and is in my top 3 gentlest, nicest, most moral people I have ever met in my life.  One of those people who makes me think that Christianity can actually bring good to the world; it did for him in spades.

Junior is a latino who made his fortune selling marijuana and is now at a point his his career where other people sell for him.  He does the union thing since it has great benefits.  I didnt want to get stoned with another buddy I worked with yesterday since I have to pee in a cup to get trained for the next skill category.

So Big Pimp looks at me and points out that 98% of the people who work in the harbor grew up in the ghetto.

Chamuco and Junior nod.

I politely point out that perhaps that is why an upper-middle class white boy from an upper-middle class white neighborhood fits right in.

We all laugh.

I won that particular game.

I am not sure what that has to do with a thread about racial tolerance.  I simply point it out that I work with people of more colors than a jumbo-sized Crayola box.

For me, it is not where you came from that defines you, it is what you do with it.

Sinergy



seeksfemslave -> RE: The Answer May Be Very Simple (5/8/2007 12:28:24 AM)

quote:

Satyr6406
While we're on the subject of children: they don't arrive in this world with inherent hate/social slant/what have you.


A commonly expressed Liberal opinion which I believe to be untrue. Of course the aggression or hostility is unfocussed during the first stages of life but surely a large part of good parenting boils down to trying to civilise the little beasts. NO ?



meatcleaver -> RE: The Answer May Be Very Simple (5/8/2007 1:31:40 AM)

Shouldn't this be in the 'What Makes America Great?' thread?





Sorry, I just couldn't resist it. [:D][;)]



UtopianRanger -> RE: The Answer May Be Very Simple (5/8/2007 1:33:33 AM)

quote:

I am quite sure that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US knows, at least one person whose background is of another ethnicity than our own who is a good person.
 
If we can agree upon that, keep reading. If we can't, goodbye.
 
What we need, here, people is a "grass-roots" movement. You know, like the ones that were so popular in the 90s? I need you to reach out to these people and introduce them to your "non-ethnic friends" as "one of the good guys/ladies". Get to know about each other's culture. Celebrate the differences, but while you're doing that, try to accentuate the similarities.


Hey tell me about it, Mike.


I'm from Cali, and in this part of Oregon, we don't even have any guys up here with crooked noses.



- R






krys -> RE: The Answer May Be Very Simple (5/8/2007 3:29:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

Satyr6406
While we're on the subject of children: they don't arrive in this world with inherent hate/social slant/what have you.


A commonly expressed Liberal opinion which I believe to be untrue. Of course the aggression or hostility is unfocussed during the first stages of life but surely a large part of good parenting boils down to trying to civilise the little beasts. NO ?


I don't remember us liberals ever saying that children are born without aggression or hostility, merely that it doesn't take a naturally racist twist.  You believe children are born racist?



Satyr6406 -> RE: The Answer May Be Very Simple (5/8/2007 3:36:03 AM)

While I appreciate a good joke, as much as the next guy and, ridicule is, technically a form of comedy, I don't hear many alternative solutions.
 
I have always found it's the fault of one political party, in particular to be able to spout all the problems in the world without proposing alternative solutions.
 
"I'm all ears!" ... H. Ross Perot, 1991
 
 
 
 
 
Peace and comfort,
 
 
 
 
 
Michael



seeksfemslave -> RE: The Answer May Be Very Simple (5/8/2007 4:50:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: krys
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
quote:

Satyr6406
While we're on the subject of children: they don't arrive in this world with inherent hate/social slant/what have you.

A commonly expressed Liberal opinion which I believe to be untrue. Of course the aggression or hostility is unfocussed during the first stages of life but surely a large part of good parenting boils down to trying to civilise the little beasts. NO ?

I don't remember us liberals ever saying that children are born without aggression or hostility, merely that it doesn't take a naturally racist twist.  You believe children are born racist?


Not really sure but I suspect the tendency to reject difference is inherent, especially when humans are competing, either for food or attention .
If not where does racism, which is a world wide phenomenon, come from ?
Inter tribal animosity in Africa goes back to the year dot. Same question follows.

I definately believe many children have an inbuilt tendancy to do harm I mean after the point in their development when they are aware of what they are doing..



farglebargle -> RE: The Answer May Be Very Simple (5/8/2007 4:53:58 AM)

It's not Black v. White v. Latino.

It's THE PEOPLE v. The Bosses.

Race conflict is just The Mans way of deflecting the true Class Conflict which is the real issue.




Satyr6406 -> RE: The Answer May Be Very Simple (5/8/2007 6:02:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It's not Black v. White v. Latino.

It's THE PEOPLE v. The Bosses.

Race conflict is just The Mans way of deflecting the true Class Conflict which is the real issue.



I agree, for the most part but, instead of throwing up our hands and resigning ourselves to the tactics of "The Man", should we, maybe, try to do something to thwart His efforts?
 
 
 
 
 
Peace and comfort,
 
 
 
 
 
Michael



jaunty1 -> RE: The Answer May Be Very Simple (5/8/2007 6:09:01 AM)

I would like to point out that Sinergy hit it on the head. It is not where you came from that defines you; it is what you do with it.
 
Live well
 
Alex



Alumbrado -> RE: The Answer May Be Very Simple (5/8/2007 6:32:18 AM)

quote:



I don't remember us liberals ever saying that children are born without aggression or hostility, merely that it doesn't take a naturally racist twist.  You believe children are born racist?



Offspring are born with innate attributes such as aggression, need for power, fear, and so forth...
'Isms', such as racism, are expressions of those attributes.




KeirasSecret -> RE: The Answer May Be Very Simple (5/8/2007 7:10:05 AM)

Although, I admire your efforts to pull the masses together, I wonder about a something.

Is the problem with “not getting along” really an ethnic problem?

It seems to me, it is more of a, “I don’t understand; the way, or why you say and do the things you do, therefore I will ____ (insert undesirable action)” problem, which knows no color or creed.

Personally I believe it is all about the terms of engagement no matter what two or more groups are trying to come together. I don’t believe that most rules put in place for such things work well because they are too vague. Too many words mean different things to different people.

For example, you can make a rule that being “rude” is terms for dismissal from the group, but there is a good possibility that one person’s idea of what is rude, is going to be different then another’s, so then you’d need someone to judge. Still, not everyone will agree; then you end up with, yet another person, being accused of picking favorites. Sounds familiar.

Since I am not sure you would agree, and I do not wish to derail your thread, I will hold off on sharing my thoughts on “terms of engagement” unless you ask.

Be well,



Marc2b -> RE: The Answer May Be Very Simple (5/8/2007 7:34:13 AM)

seeksfemslave said:
quote:

A commonly expressed Liberal opinion which I believe to be untrue. Of course the aggression or hostility is unfocussed during the first stages of life but surely a large part of good parenting boils down to trying to civilise the little beasts. NO ?

Amen. I want to laugh whenever I hear somebody say that children are naturally good. Left to their own devices, children are vicious little nazi bastards. Somebody (I forget who so all due credit to whoever credit is due) referred to each generation as the "vertical invasion." Each generation we are invaded by barbarians and it is our job to civilize them. I think P. J. O’rouke summed it up even better. In reference to the "children are naturally good," argument he responded, "anyone who has watched over a group of two year olds knows that this is utter nonsense."

kyrs said:
quote:

I don't remember us liberals ever saying that children are born without aggression or hostility, merely that it doesn't take a naturally racist twist. You believe children are born racist?

Maybe not all liberals but definitely some (from the bead wearing, guitar strumming, "all is sweetness and light" wing of liberalism). This harks back to a very old argument: are people born naturally corrupted and have to be civilized or are we born naturally good and end up corrupted? Despite what I said above I believe that the answer is really neither. Rather we are born with a set of naturally evolved animal instincts that society, for better or worse, for good or ill, seeks to direct and redirect, emphasize and de-emphasize. Amongst these instincts are a preference for the familiar and a suspicion of the different. While this doesn’t automatically result in a racist attitude, it can through role modeling (we are all role models for the young) become a racist attitude.

Farglebargle said:
quote:

It's not Black v. White v. Latino.

It's THE PEOPLE v. The Bosses.

Race conflict is just The Mans way of deflecting the true Class Conflict which is the real issue.

You’re Marxism is showing. You know, one of these days I’d like to meet this MAN I’ve been hearing so much about. I bet Realone knows who he is.

Seriously, the problem isn’t any particular race, class or ideology (instincts codified) but our own instincts going haywire in a world not really meant for them anymore. What we need to do is come to accept and understand our animal inheritance and then use our reason to redirect our instincts into constructive, or at least benign, outlets. We already do this to some extent, using sports, for example, to re-direct aggression. One thing we definitely need to do is to teach our children the scientific truth that when it comes to human beings there is in fact no "races" but only one race, the human race. We are a tribal species and each of us today belong to several psuedo tribes (company, sports team fan, friends, nation, "race," etc). Our tribal heritage impels us to look with favor on the in group (our fellow tribal members) and with disfavor on the out group (the different). We need to look upon the entire human race as one tribe and to evaluate people in the packages we all come in – individuals. In other words, to judge people (to quote MLK) "not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." This will not be an easy thing for us to do but I do believe that we are gradually heading in that direction. The Internet may accelerate this process. Today, thanks to the Internet, I can routinely talk to people from around the world. Twenty-five years ago this wasn’t possible unless you’d wanted to pick up the phone and start dialing numbers randomly (actually, when I was in highschool, a group of friends and I did start calling people in Britain randomly – let me tell you something, you don’t want to interrupt a British bloke when the world cup is on the telly).

So how’s that for a coffee fueled exposition? I really should get back to work now.



seeksfemslave -> RE: The Answer May Be Very Simple (5/8/2007 8:03:52 AM)

Another relevant point about humans and inbuilt hostility is , it doesn't appear to be class/intelligence based.
Intelligent people are better able to mask their inner aggression thats all.

These facts point to the human physche being morally flawed in some way. Then again morality is a human construct so maybe humans are morally neutral with one consequence being the hostility that is there for all with eyes to see.

Its like asking a cheetah not to hunt down beautiful looking antelopes. To him the question, if he could discuss it, simply would be meaningless.

So it is with racism which reoccurs generation after generation though enlightened thinkers have tried, totally in vain, to eradicate it.



KeirasSecret -> RE: The Answer May Be Very Simple (5/8/2007 8:29:49 AM)

While I would agree that under certain conditions people will revert to primal instinct, I don’t think it is a necessity outside of those conditions and since we are thinking creatures; I would hope I would know when it was the right time and when it is not. Survival is a primal instinct; greed is not.

Also, I am thinking as far as whether or not some children are born “evil”, while I believe some children are born with personalities that would lean toward responding in a more forceful way to fullfill their needs and wants, it is how they are taught to deal fullfilling those needs and wants along with their emotions that dictates how they will respond.  

I don’t understand how anyone can come up with the answer to "children being evil", with a subject group (2 yr olds) that has already been exposed to outside influences.

I don’t think people always pay attention to what they are teaching children. A fun game of “My bottle” and the kid learns to take what they want, and that it doesn’t actually have to belong to them to take it. And while I can picture an infant with the facial expression of, “Hey, why’d you go and do that?” I don’t think I can say I’ve seen one that would imply they were thinking, “You just wait; I won’t always be this small.”

Be well,



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